A question for discussion: Crafted item quality levels (crude, shaped, regular, pristine)

Discussion in 'Tradeskill Discussion' started by ARCHIVED-Domino, May 16, 2007.

  1. ARCHIVED-Leucippus Guest

    I would prefer the nest of the great egg style. (pristine or bust) I do not like the get items back style (tinkering style). I particularly dislike having to purchase more of an expensive item (rares, adornment compnents) than is needed. I perceive the tinkering sytle makes life more pleasant for afk crafters (botters I suspect). I perceive the nest of the great egg sytle is more tolerant of lag and linkdead conditions. One only looses the fuel, not the rare components. I do not miss, at all, the varying stats that used to occur on crude, shaped, (normal), and pristine. Just keep App IV and Adept III spells. Also, there is the observation that crafters selling Adept III spell currently only need a crude to create a desireable product, while most other crafters require a pristine. Crudes take considerably less time to make than prisines.
  2. ARCHIVED-Calthine Guest

    Ever-Befallen wrote:
    Wonder if everyone would only grind to 3rd bar for the raws return, or is XP at Pristine is so much better.

    Would you get XP for 3rd bar?
  3. ARCHIVED-KerowynnKaotic Guest

    [p]Do we get the fuel back if we don't make it to pristine? [/p][p]The only use for the less than pristine item is for fuel compensation. [/p][p]If we get at least a percent of fuel/raws back for 1-3 sure. [/p][p]If all we get are raws back .. frak no! Harvesting isn't that hard. Time consuming but not hard. [/p][p]But losing fuel money in chunks of approx 15 fuels at a gold each .. oh hell no![/p][p]----[/p][p]I would have no problem with changing the outcome to a 2 step process, though. [/p][p]Crude and Pristine. Pristine is the one that you want and Crude would be sold to vendor to recoup fuel fees. [/p][p]Crude / Crude / Crude / Pristine. [/p][p]For scholars : App2 / App2 / App2 / App4. [/p]
  4. ARCHIVED-Syndic Guest

    I like the way that Tinkering is done, it rewards the crafter for doing better at the combine, while the item will still be sellable/usable even at the lowest quality. That being said I don't mind the Nest way either I guess, by T8 I can't imagine any player not being able to make pristine. Hence really no reason to create all those other items.
  5. ARCHIVED-AbsentmindedMage Guest

    My vote would be the tinkering method. Have one quality and depending on how well you make it, you get resources back. This is better than the all or nothing approach as you should get something out of putting the resources in to making it. Likewise, the one quality will clear up the database as you suggested. So, I would definitely say model it after tinkering. However, please do not model the resource requirements after tinkering. In fact, please consider looking at how many resources tinkering requires. It is a TON too many.:p
  6. ARCHIVED-Ever-Befallen Guest

    [p] In my opinion, I'd say you would probably only give XP for the 4th bar since that would be the item generating combine. Also IMO .. the tinkering way would be dumbing down the tradeskill system, as you could make a crude item and pristine and still end up with the same item.[/p]
  7. ARCHIVED-Pitt Hammerfist Guest

    [p]I think it sounds like a great idea, Your absolutley right about anything not pristine going to the vendor as trash.[/p][p]The item shouldnt be created unless the maker hits pristine[/p]
  8. ARCHIVED-Deson Guest

    Having thought more about it, I remembered the solution to the resource returns vs writ issue;it would be fine as is. Part of the writ reward calculus is harvest time. While someone could certainly do only first level combines for writs, the resource costs would eventually start biting them in the rear vs someone who went all pristine.That said, resource return for sure. Looking at the likely future of hideous single resource costs of outfitters and and EoF style node system, making harvest go farther is better for both my time and my wallet. While I certainly like the idea of pristine or bust, it requires entirely too much rebalance and thought to implement effectively from redoing resource costs to the consideration of what fails really mean. Whatever the case, there can be no doubt about the need to redo the previous tiers to match whatever t8 becomes- especially if it is indeed resource returns that wins out. There must be consistency not only for newer players, but also for older players doing lower tier work. Not saying it has to be done all at once, just that it does eventually have to be done.
  9. ARCHIVED-Deson Guest

    Given how near trivial it is to get pristine already, I dont see that as much of an issue. Besides, it's also the way for transmuting. In both, resource returns can be a tremendous saver of both time and money so to say it's dumbing it down would be to ignore that less than pristine had some very real costs.
  10. ARCHIVED-Ever-Befallen Guest

    [p]Well, I also think they should make a bit more difficult to make pristine .. but thats probably unlikely at this point. However, the current costs of resources is nowhere near the costs of tinkering, nor transmuting so the raws return isn't a big deal IMO. If its pristine or bust, people will actually have to pay attention (and *cough* be at their keyboards) rather than not worrying where it goes since they'll get the same item anyway. Crude and pristines giving the same thing would be the equivilant of suggesting green and orange mobs to give the same XP, imo. [/p]
  11. ARCHIVED-Fortai Guest

    If this "nest" change goes in (and I think it's a good change), I think the entire crafting progress bar should be reworked also. It will not be very exciting seeing the progress go by on 4 levels, while countering anomalies. I think it makes crafting boring, and I think that's why more people don't craft. I would like to see more interaction while crafting, especially on higher levels... otherwise it is too straightforward, boring, and redundant. It becomes a grind, and that's not the way it should be. Thanks for all your posts, Domino, the community appreciates it I'm sure!
  12. ARCHIVED-The_Patchwork_Rogue Guest

    [p]I like the option of only having one item. However, I was thinking that this might remove some of the meaning behind the different levels of crafting. To replace that I have an idea.[/p][p]result level 1, "crude," as it is now gives you a crude crafting result. What if we changed that to mean it was a "crude" crafting attempt. This change in perception would be similar for each of the four levels.[/p][p]Now since we changed the thought behind it to the attempt and not the result we can change the outcomes. My idea for that change follows.[/p][p]Crude = 25% chance of getting the item you were trying to craft - If you dont get the item you get a 25% chance of recovering your raw materials (per each raw used, so you may get one, three, or even no items back).[/p][p]Shaped = 50% chance of getting the item you were trying to craft - If you dont get the item you get a 50% chance of recovering your raw materials (per each raw used).[/p][p]Standard = 75% chance of getting the item you were trying to craft - If you dont get the item you get a 75% chance of recovering your raw materials (per each raw used).[/p][p]Shaped = 100% chance of getting the item you were trying to craft.[/p][p] Just an idea I thought I would run up the flagpole...[/p][p]~Alise Darkleaf~[/p]
  13. ARCHIVED-Deson Guest

    Ever-Befallen wrote:
    Fair enough but, I think you are undervaluing the overall potential of resource returns. EoF harvesting is a pain compared to Old world and KoS. It's really almost as bad as DoF was. In a harvest world like that- especially as an outfitter- anything that could reduce the need to harvest would be a great boon in terms of time, cost and potential profits. There is still more xp given for pristine than non-pristine combines and there is nothing stopping them from making that difference more pronounced.

    Actually though we aren't making a fully informed decision yet- what is the leveling scheme for RoK? Will we have quests to do? A VG style work order system that supplies raws? Those can really impact how we view the proposal though I'd still be more in favor of the resource return.

    I also don't think that making pristine harder to get is off the table but that it requires essentially a total overhaul of TS mechanics and that's just going to take awhile. Fortunately for them if they decide to do much, it's not like they will have much content to change...
  14. ARCHIVED-Seomon Guest

    Crafting in general isn't smart, so there can be no dumbing down. IMO, you should make the change to a Skill Based System like Tinkering and Transmuting while doing this. Crafting in this game isn't hard, it's just plain boring.
  15. ARCHIVED-NosajMaxX Guest

    Firstly, I like Domino. She's taking an active approach to tradeskills and making her presence quite known, and most importantly listening to the player crafters as far as what we think is wrong with crafting, what should be changed, etc. Two thumbs up so far. Second, go with the Nest system. Easiest to implement, and as was pointed out it's more forgiving for linkdeads; it kills me when my ISP decides to wait until I'm crafting a rare piece of armor to drop my connection, and I end up with a shaped whatever, completely ruining it. Third, I'd say do this at first with just 71-80 with RoK, see what kind of reaction it's met with, what kind of issues come up that were not foreseen, and then eventually redo 1-70 to be the same way. Also, maybe someone can explain this to me: why is the first set of skills we get for progress and not durability? I have 5 level 70 crafters myself, working on a 6th and 7th right now, so I'm adequately familiar with how crafting works, yet it seems as though the lack of durability skills conspires against me in those early levels; I find it impossible half the time to craft pristine simply because the durability just wears away on its own. Is there a specific reason we don't have durability first and then progress? If not, what would it take to reverse the order of the skillsets?
  16. ARCHIVED-Deson Guest

    Think the better question is why didn't we get a full set from the start. I'd place a wager it's up there with the same idea of progress that's given us incomplete item sets/recipe lists-especially since the same person is responsible for both. Though, I'm not so much for reversing as just wholesale replacing it with something that makes sense and is more meaningful both practically and progression wise.
  17. ARCHIVED-Ventisly Guest

    I prefer Nest style where you get pristine or you get squat and lose the fuel (but not the raws). The only downside with removing the less than pristine items is that we can't tease our guildmates who get discoveries on rare crafted items that are less than pristine. Of course we make sure to lock those in the guild event list just to keep everyone humble. Gaktar Ssssaltytail
  18. ARCHIVED-Val Guest

    I like this idea...the "nest" way, that is.
    Either you succeed - 4th bar completed and you have crafted your item and received any experience due you; or you do not finish sucessfully, have created nothing, gained no experience, but not lost your resources.
    Back in the day, a crude item might actually have been more desireable to some characters due to differences in the way stats were arranged for each different stage of completion. The large drawback was...who wants to go around wearing a "crude" anything. Haha.
    The delicious icing on the cake to this would be if the chances for the "Insight" were upped a good bit, thus giving you something great to watch for and counter, hoping to have it zoom you the pristine bar quite a bit more often than it does now.
  19. ARCHIVED-Barbai Guest

    I'll give my two silver worth I suppose, I like the tinkering method myself ,note I never done nest method to me it sounds like if you get a string of critical fails near the end that drops your durablity down to third level you get nothing except some lost money in fuels.
  20. ARCHIVED-Calthine Guest

    I was unaware you kept resources on failure with the Nest method. That works. I do like the idea of getting some raws back, though.