What should a pet be allowed to do in Everquest?

Yeah, how could we have known that it was a code change and not a nerf when we couldn't get an answer from anyone about why it happened at all until today?

I believe I posted it quite a while back (shortly after the change happened). Unfortunately my search fu is failing me, or the post got removed somehow.

Nah...not only was it NOT in the patch notes, you said it was an error and the team was looking in to it.

Removing chainpetting from the game is an interesting proposition. It has always been a last-ditch tactic that allows magicians to throw massive amounts of HP at a mob in return for almost no mana. I'd be sad to see it go, but it may no longer be relevant in modern times.

That said, five minutes is incredibly severe, and a pretty insane time to keep a magician without their pet. Even 30 seconds would be a massive change.

I agree with what has been mentioned about the stagnation of pet-based burst tanking abilities. Pets needn't be amazing tanks at baseline, but the slow removal of tools to temporarily move them above baseline strength makes it difficult to balance pets by removing factors that can be changed. Either they're too weak to tank what they need to, or too strong, there's no room for too weak normally but strong enough with temporary abilities.

Five minutes was just a dart being thrown at a dartboard. Can make it 30 seconds, 60, 90, 2 minutes... I threw out the idea. Numbers can be changed as need be...

I'm going to assume you were asleep when you wrote this as I think you've been playing this game for a while....

Step 1: Nerf EM15+
Step 2: Wait 9 months
Step 3: Release new expansion
Step 4: EM15+ becomes GROUP gear
Step 5: ummmm...

So you nerf foci that are RAID this expansion, become GROUP next expansion. The level 105 to 108 mobs get 50% harder (cuz that's what a levelling expansion does) and the GROUP pet class is regressing due to the short-sited fix for RAIDERS who used to be level 100 players.

Does not compute.

I thought some of the raids already had anti-pet-tanking built into them. I haven't raided for several years but saw some strats for a few events recently.

Can I get paid for doing your job also?

Developers should have everything already notated on what went in. Post that and then I will do your jobs.

Pets take more DMG now and their dodge/miss tanking abilities are lower. Lets add that to the aegis nerf. And you have a hefty nerf on incoming DMG. You can read the beta spell threads to see that.

Seriously why should I help test your game when you don't discuss class changes with the classes effected? That is illogical

I'm sorry, whut?? Those events just before Solteris were easy as pie, yet that didn't stop you from protesting that they were too hard and/or others used techniques denied your guild because you didn't beat those events before changes. I'm old but I still have a memory.

Not exactly a secret/it's easy - well if it's so easy and the right thing to do so obvious, why not point it out and snuff out those threads started by members of early finishing guilds before classes got hurt? Lessee dragons traditionally amass and guard their horde and are more powerful when sitting on it - gee nothing about mound of bodies there and certainly no indication that contrary to tradition a dragon might get more powerful the further he was from his nest. Seriously - wrong headed contrary to common sense even in a magical world is not rare in EQ.

Mino/Finddle seems to be a bit overtuned - one could point that out or say Y'all Should Play Better while trying to obstruct anyone getting through the event by using pets. Don't you agree with me that it's better to ask for a retune than campaign to nerf guildmates????? (Mino/Finddle getting a retune I'm think).

Don't you think:
1. TeK ought to be intuitively obvious and strongly hinted at by emotes. Should, for hypothetical example emotes be changed in the new events to make things clear or not?

2. IF a mob is hitting for 40K+ or adds are being generated 10 at time I suppose it ought to be obvious that "yer doing it wrong" - except 3 anniversary events are broken, 1 or 2 existing RoF events are being revised. Ought not a reasonable course of action be fairly obvious?

3. IF its clear people are hung up enough on an event that they are relying on pet tanking (perfectly legal btw) ain't it abundantly clear that the event is either mistuned or the right course of action is obscure. One could cure devs of obscurity by posting the solution or one could request that Mages get nerfed.

Somebody (I'm definately not suggesting its you) was convinced the right way to do EW was sufficiently obscure they interogated people in another guild (WHY would they care what another guild does???). Realizing pet tanking would be an end around what they had hoped would be a gatekeeper event they started the first Mages must be nerfed thread. And it's not the first time people have done this for exactly the same we hope to delay others guild's progress reasons.

If people from early finishing guilds complain other guilds are using pets in a couple of events 3 or 4 expansions in a row, what does anyone think will probably happen? I think pets will be changed along with those events so that there's no reason to resort to pet tanking in the first place.

yes..BUT all it results in are bad reactions from other members of your class, self-righteously going on a witch hunt against you, and in some cases, getting you banned for doing the noble thing rather than the ones doing the griefing.

this itself is one of the big problems with pets though. the fact taht what is raid one year is group the next while for real tanks this is NEVER the case. raid ac heroics etc are never as good in group game a year later, often not even 2 years later, and for knights wehre cleave/fero also count for survuvability those too take a very long time to reach group level. EMfocii, the massive mitigation on some of htespells you have (currently , not commenting on what's incoming) and the fact taht many mechanics do not effect pets like they do tanks. add in thefact taht in testing today a COMPLETELY unfocused no EM wahtsoever NECRO ROGUE tank not even mage war tank wahtever..ahs over 100k hps unbuffed. the best raid tank in the game barely has taht. sadly ac cant be parsed. this parsing was done to compare to the nerf to see waht the actual change was, but thefact is that they were overpowered regardless of the EM, and adding the em on top of it plus the 30sec or less recast mitigation buffs that also mitigate spells taht tanks can not nearly as well if at all, on top of the fact taht many mechanics skip pets altogether, all of these factors put together do make pets better tanks. maybe not better strats due to not being able to melee but they are better TANKS as in they can hold better aggro and survive far easier against all content as long as they have range dps not melee. my thoughts have always been that bsts it wastn such a concern bc theyre morem elee based but from posts here flat out admittinggroup geared bsts having little difficulty outhealing real clerics, range dpsing, tankignwith the pet, and using a wiz merc..apparently they are truly in the same boat as mag/nec. These classes dont deserve to lose their pets. But they also dont deserve to have far better dps AND healing AND far better survivability in their pat tanks with fewer aas necessary and far far less gear necessary. given equivalent skill.

cisco you know i lvoe ya but you should mention that your former main was a mage that you'ren ot only speaking as an sk.

to answer the OP: they should be able to molo trash like anyone else can molo trash of the samel evel/skill/gear/aa. they should NOT be able to molo t2 nameds im sorry but no one else can why should pet classes be literally both a tankand a dps or a tank and a dps and a healer and a slower even..all tied into 1.

i too would love to see a spreadsheet of the base hp/ac/mitigation %'s without EM and with the various current EMs at levels 90 95 and 100, so EM 7-18, a side by side comparison of the buffs cast on pets taht eliminate many hits from both spells and melee taht tanks have to wait 20-30min to use again while petclasses' are 30second or less, etc.

i also agree that most of the data will enver be posted from the playerbase bc they're hiding it. no one wants to show the world how they have the best survivability and aggro tank in teh game by casting a spell with an earring on, and also have far far surpassing dps of real tanks, just like no necro will voluntarily post their best parses and no mage will publicly discuss beam kiting. you're all in pure denial of just how good you ahve it and you're made becauseyou MIGHT end up a LITTLE closer to the rest of the game now in balance. you'ren ot going ot lose your abilities theyll just be a little more in line wiht where they shoudl be...however i also do agree taht the method by which it's being done isnt ideal for either group or raid issue with it.

Enough bickering though, lets look at the Rune nerf alone. Pets were able to get 7-9 complete misses on Spell or Melee attacks. The Aegis AA was also able to be cast before or after the spell meaning another 8, totaling to 14 to 16 complete misses on any type of melee or spell. These got changed to either a 50k Spell/melee mitigation (4 hits) or a 22k spell/melee mitigation (8 hits). They do not stack and whichever is on first takes precedent. So 12 hits max vs 16 max, and 4 hit nerf.

Now Xorbb nameds have DDs they cast. Snakespit does 63k, Freezing Glare does 56k, Inner Stormwheel is 40k, Mindseep is a 72k DD, Bleeding Bones 75k, Claw Swipe 45k, Crunchbite 70k, Bonesnap 46k. Those are DDs from Xorbb nameds according to Eq Resource, if the details are wrong I apologize but they are generally credible.

That is 3 70k+ nukes that the pet would normally mitigate fully but now receives at minimum 20k DMG and max around 50k DMG. There are 2 56k+ that the pet would again fully miss but takes at a minimum of 6k to 41k. Then you have 3 in the 40 to 50k range that would get fully mitigated by Shadows but the pet would take 20k+ when Nefori is on. That is not a group player nerf at all though.

So in the toughest content pets are forced to take more DMG, to a much greater degree, by simply downloading content. There are some facts, and I did not even have to log into the game to provide those.

Pets shouldn't be useful.

Let's make them ornamental only, weapons are only so they look pretty and gear can work like Hero's Forge. No attacks, no spells, nothing. /s

Mages are too powerful as is.

*Note, /s is sarcasm.

and waht are the reuses of each of these abilities?

48 seconds on Shadows and 36 seconds on Nefori.

Hoping you didn't merely gloss over the actual intent of the post.

wasnt glossing over anythign actually id asked for that data and was glad for it. but thats not really the full data. what's the recast on the spell version of the rune before and after the nerf, and hte recast on the aa version? (i do know they werent linked prior but not sure if they are now) if shadows and nefori you are referring to are spell and aa then i apologize for asking, but are they now linked or simply dont stack? also what about the other spell buffs put on pets if any, i know necros have multiple things they can put on beyond jsut basic pet haste/buff but idk the specifics

all i want to do is to look at data from both sides of this "argument" and from both pre and post nerf to see jsut how dramatic or not it is, and so taht facts can say flat out whether or not things need tuning, in what direction, on to whom etc, rather than all the hyperbole and opinions. opinions are generally where arguments come from and thissubject does tend to have a lot of them. if we can get the data from all sides people can decide for themselves whats what and stop arguing. every situation is different also, group makeups etc so no one blanket changecan ever be fully fair and i dont agree with blanket changes or unnecessary nerfing or tweaking, what im asking you for is to make your case that it wasnt necessary and is overboard or unfair. make me a believer, i wont argue with facts if you can show me with them why you feel as you do. i dont play pet classes it's not my thing, i only have observation and my own experiences as a tank (not taht ive personally had issues being chosen to tank after a pet, i have seen the arguments from others pushing for it over anyh tank) so show me your side without opinions and conjecture, jsut give me thefacts. unfortunately some facts arent available like base mitigation/ac etc butshow me what you can beyond the fact that you can't melee with a pet tank, that everything was right and fair and as it should be before the incoming nerfs, and i will fight right alongside you against them. show me.

There is no before, these are 2 new spells. That also need to have room in your line-up (they have the 48 and 36 recast when you mem them). They stack as in you can have both on the pet, but only the top buff slot one will remove the counters, then the next rune kicks in. Before it was one spell that was also an AA.

Things pets have does not have any factor though. For years they had the same things with Aegis, and now they have the same things with the new runes. Those are variables that do not even need to be considered.

I had an entire post of indisputable facts as to why the Rune nerf will hinder the group Magician like Piestro requested. I also showed that I didn't need to log into the game to see this. It also works the same regardless of pet foci.

As to the second part of the nerf:

EM 18 96 Air pet. no buffs on the pet at all. Merely my merc healing. 2000 seconds for each fight.

BETA: /GU Tanking summary for: Boss --- Total damage: 9162420 --- Avg hit: 3274 --- Swings: 3893 --- Defended: 725 (18.6%) --- Hit: 2798 (71.9%) --- Missed: 370 (9.5%) --- Accuracy: 88.3% --- Dodged: 130 (3.9%) --- Parried: 150 (4.2%) --- Blocked: 296 (7.6%) --- Riposted: 149 (4.3%).

LIVE: /GU Tanking summary for: Boss --- Total damage: 8822812 --- Avg hit: 3180 --- Swings: 3852 --- Defended: 714 (18.5%) --- Hit: 2774 (72%) --- Missed: 364 (9.4%) --- Accuracy: 88.4% --- Dodged: 144 (4.4%) --- Parried: 136 (3.8%) --- Blocked: 292 (7.6%) --- Riposted: 142 (4.1%).

Same mob. Shards landing.

Like I said nothing major which is actually the problem. This change did nothing for the raid game and everything for the group game.

Like I said at the start, this will be one of many changes if these are the routes SOE will take. Which is the entire issue. The Rune nerf nor this HP/AC nerf will do nothing to solve SOEs issue of pets tanking raid mobs. The next will be lets try a bigger nerf on pet HP/AC. Or runes that got changed from 39k to 50k really need to be back at 39k because our genius idea to fix pet tanking didn't work.

This will cause a snowball effect. In 4 weeks we have seen 2 nerfs. The cases have been made why pets should not tank, but never with the tanks parsing for SK/Pal/Warr. IDK why I should do the parsing for something that should not effect my class. Nor do I think there is a justification for anyone to do parsing in this matter when the root of the issue is that group tanks need help.

Like I have said before. I could need to get my pet 45k AAs, full augs and raid gear and tanks would not be happy with them tanking even though that would be doing at least triple the work any other class is required to do. Tanks do not like pets, even if things were equal they would despise them because of the way they look or move or something.

If the abilities are there before and after they do nothing for the change. They are a constant not a variable in the equation. Meaning they are not necessary to gauge things. But Prism skin, Fortify, host in the shell, Companion's Blessing. You don't judge a nerf on the fact there are other abilities you judge the nerf on what actually was nerfed.

Aegis of Kildrukaun got nerfed to blocking 8 spells at 18.9k DMG per counter. It was an entire nerf plus new spell line in one.

2 nerfs on pets in 4 weeks is lolworthy. and would have tanks up in arms if the same was done to them.

I personally would think they are upset because their job is being taken from them. If that is allowed to continue and then be promoted by SoE, it sets the prescedent that a plate wearing class should take the back seat to a clothie (EQ racism?)

I should be angry because as someone who can use a pet, our pet has been crapped on for years! RAWR!!!

SoE needs to be sure this affects the right area, if it does...GOOD! If it doesn't, and is followed by DATA and FACTS together, then there is an argument to tweak it.

You forgot to factor in Spell shielding on those, Pie. I'm not sure exactly how much your pets have, but I think they have the max of 35% at high levels? With 35% Spell Shielding those AEs are:
63k -> 41k.
56k -> 36.5k.
40k -> 26k.
72k -> 46.8k.
75k -> 48.8k.
45k -> 29.3k.
70k -> 45.5k.
46k -> 29.9k.

Nefori is 9 hits at 21.8k per (Rk. II), so the final result is:
41k -> 19.2k
36.5k -> 14.7k
26k -> 4.2k
46.8k -> 25k
48.8k -> 27k
29.3k -> 7.5k
45.5k -> 23.7k
29.9k -> 8.1k

That is too much for your pet to handle?