Warr vs. Pal. vs SK

There we go, suggestion, I like it.

Only issue I have is, you can be immune to mezz, but not to mezz and mezz!

Also maybe Warrior can get a special AA that when they get a rez they come back with 15% endurence, and breather line allows them to go to + 10 % over the rest. Or an AA that gives them + 250 end regen or something like that when under X%, to get them back in the tanking lineup faster.

I think you're misremembering one or more posts. One was from Piestro (community manager, not a dev) who made a comment to the effect that he preferred healing wars because his heals mattered more. Not because it was good for the game, but because he personally enjoyed it more. (This may be hard to believe now, but our community manager used to regularly chat with us, not just post official statements. I miss Piestro. )

The other possibility is when Elidroth wanted to do away with Final Stand entirely, because it was making it hard to tune content properly. Either they tuned for a warrior under FS and everyone got roflstomped in any other scenario, or they tuned without it and stuff would become a cakewalk under FS. His proposal went over like a lead balloon, amidst much weeping and gnashing of teeth, and the idea was abandoned at that time. Instead, we later got phalanx and then proficiencies, to narrow the gap between disc and non-disc mitigation. Considering how many times they've said they want all 3 tanks to be viable, it was really only a matter of time before they did something similar for the knights, though I must admit I was pretty shocked to see them get an exact carbon copy.

At no time did a dev state that they're intentionally making warriors weak so that groups would want multiple clerics.

Well these threads have pretty much ruled out a lot of warriors by that criteria. I'm personally not so crazy about knights getting the exact same def prof as warriors. SKs getting the same two hander prof makes sense - SKs are suppose to be the highest dps'ing tank, afterall - but while knights needed a def prof type boost, I don't think it necessarily needed to be to the full extent as warriors.

All that aside, instead of all of these threads & posts asking to have knights nerfed or to try yet again to take away the 'dps tank' role from SKs, why not request boosts to warrior mitigation discs, perhaps in power, duration, and/or reuse time? I don't personally know anyone whom plays a knight that doesn't think warriors shouldn't be the best tanks; they just want knights to be viable and excel in their branch of secondary options.

Because they like playing a warrior. They are different to play than one of the knights. I'm curious how much the weapon stance fixes help out DPS for warriors that aren't tanking since they can now afford to use them without suffering a penalty once they have to switch over to sword & shield in the event they are needed to tank at a later point in time. You guys were actually penalized for the swapping of weapon stances which was never a good design choice by the Devs.

1.) Pop a cleric merc. Other than Brell's, which has never beem game changing, the merc cleric will cast better buffs on you than the same level paladin. I've cast the paladin versions of cleric buffs about 3 times total in the last several years. I don't know of any truly meaningful buffs that SKs have other than their epic weapon's click.

1.b) I don't really know how useful "Tempestuous Defense Discipline" but it has a stun associated with the proc. Only lvl 103 though and maybe it sucks to use - no clue about it other than that.

2.) There are potions that allow you to FD. You just lack the AAs that only necros and SKs have to make them more effective. As a paladin, I use them all the time and I don't see why a warrior couldn't. There are quite a few classes that can snare in some way or another - it's hardly an SK only ability.

3.) Warriors out tank the knights before and after the changes. They still have the best overall combination of AC, HPs, and Aggro generation which is everything you need for effective tanking. The more mobs you're tanking at a time, the more pronounced the advantages are due to the knights having to deal with spell interrupts.

You also leave out changes like "at-range, at-will aggro tools" that knights used to have as an advantage compared to warriors. Higher HP totals, Higher AC totals, etc... which are all available to be self-buffed while in combat without changing spell / ability sets.

Because they are min-maxing their roster and warriors are still better tanks?
Because these theoretical warriors are good/great/elite players?
Because there's never enough tanks during play time outside of raids?

It was given an explanation:

Apparently, the Devs feel that there shouldn't be as huge of a gap between warriors and knights tanking. Same with the two-handed weapon stance.

Warriors aren't going to be teleporting, healing or nuking. So you're only asking to tank better than all others which you still will. Just not as much better as you used to. Like I mentioned above, the Devs no longer feel warriors should have such a huge advantage in that area compared to the knights.

Maybe you guys can justify something similar to the monk mend ability, something similar to the rogue ability Daggergash that's based off of 'bash', something similar to the berserker ability Arcslice, and/or something for use with a dual wielding setup. The weapon attacks could all be tied to a shared timer or something so they share the same cool down. The warrior class should be about more than just pure tanking.

See the quote above from Roshen.

The warrior abilities they gave the knights have been well tested for quite some time now. They are known to work. The weapon stance changes look like a better implementation than what was available before.

I hope this doesnt end with a nerf to paladins.

now that they've destroyed mages, the bad tanks need to look elsewhere. They cannot improve, so they gotta make everyone else worse than they are.

Sorry Linden. But they might be coming for paladins next.

They are trying to rebalance the game, I'm sure we will all get a turn.

I think you are right it was Piestro, I didn't know his official title and i still can't find the quote. It was to the effect he enjoys healing warriors more, because it keeps him more busy. Just what every warrior wants, to be considered hard to keep alive. yey. As far as why not boost warriors even more, instead of nerfs to knights (which i'm not asking for or suggesting), id be all for that, but its a constant back and forth that will only ever end when people decide if warriors and knights are suppose to tank equally or not. Otherwise, if you boost warriors more from here, then in a few months apparently out of the blue it will be time to boost knights an equal amount also. What does all this do for all the other classes not being boosted? Like a berserker trying to melee and gets hit once or twice. Is the game balanced around these endless back and forth boosts to warriors vs. knights or around all the non tank classes. I'd like to think who ever implements all these changes has already thought all this out, but that is not how things feel to me, it seems a constant knee jerk reactions to a few vocal players complaints. Maybe I'm over looking that the long forever awaited eq/next/landmark or landmark-next, or whatever will eventually take over the player base and maybe I'm a lot more worried about old EQ, then the people working at DBG. Maybe they would be just as happy if everyone left EQ, and went to their newer game where i guarantee a lot more resources are being used. Am I going to loose any sleep over whether knights have more/less/same mitigation as warriors, no. Do i think these changes are being done in a logical, common sense way, that makes the game more fun? I honestly don't. Just the fact that its all cookie cuttered, one size fits all, palidin gets, whatever shadow knight gets, which is whatever warrior gets, that doesn't seem like it can encourage the diversity of the different tank classes. I have always been against having 1 class called "tank", and I don't think that would be more fun then having 3 distinct classes, with distinct strengths and weaknesses. Maybe its as simple as there is one designer working on this and he/she wants 100% tank parity in what they can be expected to tank. That's fine, I just disagree with that.

So when it's the knights turn, do you think warriors will get powerful enough self-healing to chain pull whole missions without healer backup?

Assuming I remember correctly, Piestro was a PR Rep with the same job duties of Roshen. Neither was/is a developer that I know of. Completely different job duties and responsibilities.

It's likely that tanking will be balanced around what the warriors and knights can take for punishment. Maybe add in a few of the pet tanks (with aggro control concerns - especially for multiple mobs). Everyone else is likely screwed.

Your guess is as good as mine, but probably.

Maybe instead, warriors will get some crazy Eviscerate ability where they slash open the guts of their enemies with two handed weapons (don't ask how that works with 2H blunts please) dealing absurd amounts of damage similar to Headshot and Assassinate.

guess I lost that arguement, here I am all worried about the actual numbers. Every post on this topic informs me Warriors are still going to be the best looking, strongest most desired of any tanks.

Maybe, they want all the tanks to be able to tank everything, because, well, maybe, people play a tank to .......tank! Make the differences elsewhere.

SK up their dps as they are necro tanks, and they bring epic? to the group. lifetaps.
Pally healing/curing, healing boosts/ac for others, and tanking

War, slightly better tanks, give them some good burn discs or some immunities (spell stun, mez, charm, etc). a way to get endurance back quickly like zerker communion of blood, but without the hp penalty.

War have some nice things that they can buff their groups with currently, AC aura+ group buff, Imperator's AA's, group fearless, etc. They have the most OH CRAP! abilities in faster flash, warlords, healing boosts, and the ability to up their ac way higher than the other tanks, and the most abilities to stack outside of LS/Unholy.

When I signed for the warrior class, I signed for a class able to mitigate better in all aspects of the game, I don't see why it's a problem. I don't want to have utility or dps to compensate, i want a mitigation advantage on other tanks classes. Knights bring to compensate this a bigger utility.
SK asked for a role in raid.
It seems like devs are giving them a MT Raid Boss, but this is a job yet taken by warriors, and it's a terrible move if devs consider this is the raid role they want SK to have.

don't SK's already have a raid role - offtanking? Which they can do better than paladins.

They have better defensive abilities than paladins, and the self-healing edge paladins have doesn't matter on a raid because you have dedicated healers

SK only have one tanking ability that is different and most likely are not going to use it on an add, they will save it for the oh crap incase the main mob gets loose. Pallies have a plethora of other abilities that they can use to up the incoming healing etc during adds, so its pretty even really.

Self healing is usually very important and better for pallies because of their heal boosts because of the limited healing on add tanks. That again was why the war was a better add tank too, required less healing on adds, looking at you lifeblood, especially when long stuns are a concern.

WAR: Devs don't understand us or have a plan for our class
PAL: Yeah so.... we're just going to stay out of this one
SHD: Shut it, jealous Warriors. Go back to nerfing Mages

So, in trying to read whatever happened with everquest landmark, (i've never played WoW,EQ2,Everquest next/landmark) or any other role playing cept EQ1, it had "the worlds" definition of what the tank classes are in EQ1.

• Warrior: the prototypical tank class, able to avoid and mitigate more damage than any other. In a way, this is offset by their inability to cast spells. Owing to their stalwart defensive prowess, the Warrior often has a crucial role as main tank of a group or raid party, absorbing or mitigating the sustained assaults of enraged and often numerous opponents. Their high hit points also allow them to take more punishment than most other classes before succumbing, which gives healers a greater chance to keep them, and thus the party, alive and well. In their role as tank or proverbial damage sponge, the Warrior uses their Taunt skill to keep dangerous enemies trained on them, rather than chasing down overly-aggressive wizards or rogues, who may come under attack after landing a devastating backstab or lightning strike. All these qualities may help engender a sense of trust in a well-known and well-armored warrior, who can generally go toe-to-toe with a powerful mob for longer than any other class.
• Shadow Knight: a durable tank class; this Warrior/Necromancer hybrid has vampiric and damage-over-time spells. Shadow Knights have the unique ability to Harm Touch (do direct damage) every seventy-two minutes, the power of which increases in absolute terms but decreases relative to enemies' hit points as a player levels up. Since this class is a hybrid, they must wait longer than the Necromancer to begin receiving spells, and longer yet for the more potent incantations such as Summon Corpse and Feign Death. Shadow Knights are, after some time, able to summon a weak skeleton pet, as well as summon a player's corpse that is in the same zone as them, a vital skill when things have gone horribly amiss in a deep dungeon. Their Feign Death spell, similar to but slightly less reliable than one possessed by the monk class, can prove useful in dangerous situations.
• Paladin: the virtuous counterpart to the Shadow Knight, a Paladin is a hybrid Warrior/Cleric. They were originally able to Lay on Hands (heal themselves or another player) once every seventy-two minutes (real-time); Lay on Hands is now available as an innate ability. At mid-levels, paladins can purchase some resurrection spells. Paladins are tough in melee with some healing, protective, and stun spells. At mid-range levels, they can purchase a "pacify" line of spells that allows them to function as a puller for a group. Like Shadow Knights, Paladins have powers which enable them to do comparatively greater damage to undead opponents.

Now, if the new EQ developers want to change what EQ is, that is fine. But this is a complete departure from what EQ used to be. Now, for the people saying warrior gear is way better then knight gear:
Warrior TBM raid BP - 542AC 4823hp
Palidin TBM raid BP - 542AC 4778hp ALL TANKS CAN USE SAME AUGs
Shadowknight TBM BP 542ac 4778hp
This is what people mean when they say warrior class gear has better ac/hp? 55hp? And a side note for kleitus, the reason warriors die when they 2h stance as the next tank is because if they do get hit at all, they have no mitigiation running (no defensive stance) and their Flash of Anger disc will not fire while in 2h stance. So in a real "oh shet" situation, either your already in defensive stance, or you die before you can click a button, for the most part.

EQ is short on raiding Tanks unless you in some super raid guild , this is a step in the right direction making Knights tougher , now they just have to take that 2nd step and make Druids better healers, like give them HOT and faster cool downs

Yi Min

Ah. So since not enough people are choosing to play warriors, they will make changes to further make people not want to play warriors. Everyone can just play Knights. Wonderful.