Twisted Legacy's Raiding Proposal - Rotation

They've quoted any interference would be punishable. So no, it really wouldn't be.

hang in there, this / / much closer

There are four basic factions that have an interest in this rotation. 1.TL, which is comprised of the vast majority of good, experienced raiders. 2.The shittys that have the time to raid, but lack the ability, because waiting until the raid leader says to hit auto attack is so hard. 3.The experienced players that are waiting for a later date to raid, which pretty much means when either free time in their real lives open up or GoD. And 4. Rosenguard. The good player that gets to raid because their prime time is different.

1. Wants the lion's share of the loot, and deservedly so. They also don't want to stare at Inny for 10 hours while another guild sits on their hands. I get this. If DBG had a vote on rotation, I would vote no. Where a rotation is beneficial to them is letting the shittys learn how to raid, and getting them drops for their epics and pieces of their flags on future xpacs. We all know the vast majority of shittys that end up learning how to play are going to be in TL. History has taught us that. Very few new people join a progression server mid progression. Plenty leave it with each month. It's not unheard of for a guild leader or senior officer to just up and quit one day, let alone the rank and file. Someone has to fill those slots. Superman isn't going to join midway through Luclin.

2. Wants access to content with a chance at a win. TL's deal is actually very generous to them. We can guess this is because TL knows they need these very same players in future xpacs, or maybe TL is just really nice guys. Maybe both. Maybe TL knows the shittys don't realize just how they are, and are going to give a big fat negative on the idea and TL goes on with business as usual, and looks like the good guy. Then when a deal is finally reached, we'll be at Kunark. After TL forgets their spot a few times, because it's not their place to keep track, they will be flagged for VP and well on their way with epics. Then when the other guilds are getting their epics, TL is getting their velious keys. There will be some more shenanigans for Luclin and PoP, as AAs thin the herd even more, and wallah, we are at GoD and instanced raiding.

3. Would like to raid, but can't do it 24/7 so we don't. We know that raiding is 24/7 in classic. We know what a sock is. We know mysterious, or not so mysterious monks show up with mob tails if we join a guild that tries to take down targets at set times. Even if we have equal skill sets and numbers, we will still be beaten by TL more than not because of the gear advantage. We know there would be plenty of nights we would show up to raid and no mobs would be up. If this casual raid guild were to exist, the low shot at dragon loot wouldn't be worth the time, even if this casual raid guild were skilled enough to compete. That's why we currently aren't in a raid guild. If a rotation afforded us a guild that would let us raid on our schedule, we would join in a heartbeat. If not, we'll go back to playing the game the way we have the first month and a half. TL's proposal does nothing for us, and it does nothing against us. If there isn't an option for us, then some of this group will quit before they get to raid and others will refuse to join TL at a later date for a variety of reasons. One of those reasons is these players suspect TL would have done all kinds of bad things to them had they already joined a guild. Some of these players have been steamrolled by TL players in group content. Some of these players are jealous that TL members get to put in the time, and then get annoyed when TL players brag on the forums that they are leet because of superior talent.(I personally fall into this latter category, but that's no reason not to join a guild). Some of these players will be in TL come GoD, but the pool will be cut down by not including an option for them. DBGs will live without the subs and TL will live without these future recruits. But if you are in TL, and you want to raid past Velious, I want you to just sit back and watch these other raid guilds on their first clean attempt at these new mobs. That's who you will be back flagging epics for.in 6 months. Have fun with that.

4. The Euros that do the Euro thing will probably get a few additional kills because of the rotation, and it seems to me they already have a working relationship with TL.

So if you are in a raid guild not named TL, take the deal with a smile on your face.

Oh I'm fully aware they said it would be punishable. The issue arises that every time somebody comes in, what are they going to do? They won't ban them because that's 20-50 accounts (and more if it happens more than once) that wouldn't go into the bank each month. So at best they'll suspend them for a few days. Ok cool.

How do you define who gets suspended? Is it everybody in the raid? Is it everybody that attacked the mob? If they kill the mob, then what? Does the loot get taken away? Does the loot get given to the guild that had the mob taken from them? On that note what if that guild couldn't even kill the mob in their specified time slot anyways? Does a new one get spawned?

All of these are questions that 1) would need to be answered beforehand so people knew what to expect and 2) involve more effort to be expended by DBG to sort out. From a bottom line perspective the whole point of this from their end is to expend less effort than they are and the complications that occur from leaving a mob up for that long clearly don't give DBG their desired outcome

Sensibly speaking if it starts happening most rotations boot people that start missing their spawns too much - plus sometimes disciplinary for interfering (which if they got suspended too many times would do) - which would create a feedback loop of either them falling in line or getting chain suspended until banned.

He's saying he want's an arbiter from DBG (they promised support in resolving problems).

We've put forth a good faith effort here - our proposal is cloned from an already-successful-rotation in effect on Lockjaw. So many people seem to think that a rotation is an equal distribution of loot and that all competition should be removed pretty much. Compromise is the art of making nobody happy but giving everyone something. The compromise in our proposal is pretty evident given where things stand currently, the compromise in some other's proposals is all concessions from us. There are a few guilds who have been pretty fair in talking to us (thanks - you know who you are) and realizing that it involves compromise. Needless to say, when some other people's "compromise plan" is really all one-way, they end up very much in favor of it.

There are, additionally, some facets of other proposals that should be utterly unacceptable to DBG and the public at large. Some of the things we've seen floated are just...insidiously bad. You may not like our proposal's time limits or FFA periods, but it's fair and even in how it works (ask the LJ guilds in it, the proposal is theirs, not TL's - so much for that tinfoil). If guilds want to implement those things, do as Skyp said - get a DBG arbiter to sign off on that crap.

I think it's fair to request an arbiter at this point to help out. It's done all the time in real-life negotiations/solutions.

If people want to spin it as - not abiding by a rotation that is totally one way - then sure, go right ahead. We're just requesting use of the resources that DBG promised.

Leaving a mob up for 10-24 hours would be absolutely gross lol.
I guess the question would be, is there any allowance for people out of the rotation? When your run of the mill 18 boxer runs up to a dragon that has been sitting there for 10 hours, what is he to do?! I mean it is about 100+ krono sitting there ripe for the taking!
And yes, an 18 box with the correct classes can take down these dragons (heck you could probably 12 box pet wall a dragon down). Need slightly more for the gods too if they are really good at what they do but the deathtouch would be slightly more pesky besides on CT where you could just bind right next to him and come to live able to summon a new pet!

Well it depends on how the agreement is set up - if it's set up such that allowing them to be up that long isn't permitted it's "not gross" to use your odd phrasing.

But if the rotation permits it and someone interferes - bad for their account status.

The only thing I'm gathering from this thread is that TLP is full of borderline criminals. How do you guys walk into a bank, look at the vault and not rob it? I mean, it's right there in front of you!

To be fair, many of the proposals weren't much more than ranting to feel better. There's a lot of wishful thinking, and it's pretty obvious who has never had to deal with inter-guild drama before. It's just odd that this is happening now, as much of the discussions here will be moot come kunark. With that in mind, there were a few suggestions that are more than favorable to TL.

Just don't understand the tendency on these boards for people to largely focus on the extreme opposite end of their views. There's so much more that's in the middle. Not saying this to pick on any one person, as it's a pretty general trend.

Something to consider about is the gods/dragons have a 24hour respawn, so leaving something up for between almost half-a full rotation feels counter productive to even a rotation, as it means the server as a whole is getting less loot. Over the span of a week, 70 hours(assuming min time of 10hr) youre potentially missing 3 kills worth of loot per week.

Let me specify what I mean by gross.

I don't know spawn timers that well but I think they spawn anywhere from 24-48 hours. Lets use the middle point of 36 hours and work that with numbers.
That means
(~30 days) * (24 hours) = ~720 hours/month
Spawns = ~36 hours meaning 720/36 = 20. So we get 20 Inny + 20 Nag + 20 Vox + 20 CT per = 80 rotated gods/dragons per month.
If we allow each of these mobs to be up for 24 hours, the spawn time can suddenly potentially turn into 60 hours per spawn (worst case scenario) meaning
Spawns = ~60 hours meaning 720/60 = 12 meaning gods/dragons per month suddenly equals 48 instead of 80.

Do you see a problem with this? Especially on RF where there are 10 guilds wanting to be in the rotation? Potentially with only ~ 1 month before kunark, they would only get 1 of each CT/Vox/Inny/Nag. And that is not even considering the free for all aspect of the rotation. With the FFA taken into account.

36 hours (FFA) + 60 hours (36 hours + 24 hours allowed to be up) = 96 hours between each rotation mob.
720/96 = 7.5 spawns per x 4 = 30 dragons/gods per month on rotation meaning of the 10 guilds rotating each guild will get the opportunity 3 times a month to fight one of the gods/dragons.
That is why I say it is gross.

It's amazing to see all this ego and self-importance over a niche playstyle, in a niche game of a niche genre.

Seriously, <3 to the people that can only think in terms of this or that.

Your math is bad - among other things you're assuming the max every time for those rather than median.

That isn't to say I approve of such a long window (in fact as some have suggested eliminating variance would GREAT for rotation stuff since variance makes rotations harder) - but your math should be based off the median not the outlying - for every 48 hr spawn (and I think the max is lower BTW) + 23h59m wait to kill it there would be a 24h (which I think the min is lower BTW as well) + 1m kill sometimes to balance it out.

Worst case scenarios are a fancy way of saying "an unrealistic example".

Quite clear. You think you can dictate to DBG what they need to do. Just don't be surprised when it doesn't work out to be as simple as you think.

Maybe its just me, but unless Day Break consistently enforces whatever agreement is made, its going to be a worse cluster than before. And with EQ's track record, consistency isn't their forte.

Given the issues with Fippy/Vulak they knew what to expect and then have been flipping forwards and backwards on how things are going to be handled currently. If you have to instance regular zones, how does it add up you to don't have to instance raid targets?

The current rotation is only going to spurn stupid tactics. What's to stop a guild of splitting up into 3-4 guilds to get more shots at targets? A guild on Vulak had most their members suspended for a week and held down the targets with alts, just put your alts in a sister guild, more spoils.

There is a reason EQ started instanced content, to avoid all the issues that are currently being dealt with, and new ones not figured out yet. So spend resources enforcing or resources fixing the problem. Screw up enforcing, and you don't get a chance at fixing, since everyone is going to be gone.

Ruven

Sorry champ, I do not wish to dictate anything regarding this rotation. That's why I'm leaving it in the hands of an arbitrator.

Honestly, assuming DBG is willing to step in and do it - I think that's going to get the best results for everyone.

I'm not saying otherwise. But suggesting that DBG "needs to" keep track of spawns and rotation turns is a bit optimistic at this point. Saying DBG "needs" to do anything is as a general matter fairly humorous.

Oh I agree I went with the worst case scenario but my addition and multiplication were spot on so technically my math was good!
I just wanted to express the reason why long periods of allowing mobs up is not desired by any of the top 3-5 guilds on the server. Longer allowances mean less dragons/gods overall and that is a simple fact.

Now it brings up another really good point though. What if DBG based the spawn timer on the previous spawn timer of the mob instead of the kill timer on the mob and they kept s 24 hour variance in there?
If they didn't base the spawn on when the mob was last killed, than noone would throw any gripe about giving you 10+ hours to kill your rotation mob. It would be great! I doubt it could easily be coded.
Or give the mob code where if it is killed within the first 14 hours than the next spawn is based on the spawn timer of the one that was just killed but after 14 hours it is based on the kill time. That would mean guilds would give you 12 hours to kill it than they would rush to kill it if it is still up before that 14 hour mark.
I'll let you suggest this to DBG because I am too lazy to do anything but post my suggestion on this forum.