The ever-favored class

I feel like if my guild leader made a thread to whine about my class on the forums I'd probably find a new guild tbh.

SK AE aggro is so good we even lock down paladins on the forums.

Man, this gets better and better....

I think I proved my point to my guild, ty all:

YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT SKs WITHOUT EQFORUM AGGRO

Well one spell from the Burst line seems to hang around so we can cast one out of group heal on occasion. Otherwise no, a paladin's spell book goes to keeping themselves, ToT (MT or self again), and group alive.

There's no imbalance, because you have the heal-other utility. You are wishing that your class was more like SK.

Harh pretty glaring aye. Well the SK needs it after using Reaver's Bargain to tank the un-tankable right? You know for internal class balance obviously. Even the description reeks of favoritism as "thought" leech restores physical endurance too.

SK have been on easy mode for a few years (since RoF in this example) and so what? Let em enjoy the fun while they can. While the devs favor a class and put creativity into its design, that gives players hope that the game will go on.

nerf a-d tapdancing, meh nevermind the sk dev would just buff stoicism to 100% making it easier to tank swarms

You forgot to mention Slay Undead, and other abilities, for which there is no SK comparison.



Add to that the ability to cycle through the extended target window and trigger slays on non-undead mobs. You know, just like Mortal Coil.

Tanks should be balanced around ‘’Tanking’’. Saying all is fine and dandy because you can heal others should never slide IMO. The only penalty Paladins should face due to that is DPS on live mobs and we do. Our damage is lower than the other tanks than it’s ever been lol. Healing overlap has existed in groups and raids for a long time. A good-excellent geared and AA’d Paladin can fill in for a Priest and main heal a group. Filling in for a healer class that would do the role better should never be one of our highlights. Again, being main healer in a group or raid should not be a shining point for a Paladin. It should be something that’s doable in a pinch, with the appropriate gear and knowledge . No different than a Shadowknight can definitely more than go lights out on a DPS burn and fill in for the best of them if they know what they are doing. Claiming that you should have that, plus other perks because ‘’you can heal others!’’ is beyond silly. DPS is King/Queen and there is no overlap. Having a shortcoming there is more than an adequate penalty without adding more things to the mix

Am I the only one that finds threads like this to be counter productive to the game? Instead of asking the developers for a bump in ones own class by pointing out flaws they have to resort to trying to bring other classes down so they don't "feel" inferior. What is this going to accomplish in the end? Less players once you accomplish your goal by getting another class nerfed into the ground. Instead of class bashing how about coming up with creative solutions to make your own class better if you feel it needs improvements.

What's next a thread created by necro's about how OP mage pets are and how their pets should be just as good? Enchanters wanting ports or COTH? Zerkers wanting stealth and rogues wanting to throw large weapons at their foes? A game like this needs class identity otherwise what's the point of even having classes outside of tank, healer, caster, and melee with no options within each. Instead of spread sheets comparing yourself to another class come up with something creative. A thread like this servers no useful purpose to the game as a whole but rather divides the player base and will only accomplish driving players away from the game instead of retaining players.

I believe I specifically said I was NOT looking for FD, a pet, harm touch etc...

But discs that are cursed vs holy or mantle vs mantle.....a "dark" knight vs a "light" knight.... why is one stronger than the other? Is this an intended imbalance?

The post before this one said it best...DPS is king.

You want suggestions:

Add 1 AA AE aggro ability to paladin, call it Devout Rabble.

Change Act of Valor to not instant kill you, instead have it drain 100% of your mana, same ability. No pallies are using AoV atm.

Increase Marr's Gift, have it include endurance.

Make a new ability, Smite of Mithaniel Marr, strike the non-believers with increased melee dps for x time while decreasing group/ae/single target healing efficiency. I'd be fine with it having a limitation on slay if the target was undead so it couldn't be stacked and produce unbalanced undead dps.

Toggle AA ability to whether splash has a cure component or not. Events with a counter debuff/multiple debuffs pally splash isn't usable at all.

Decrease the mana cost on the crush line. It is currently 10x the cost of the terror line.

For the love of MM....fixed invis even if it's single only.


Add ability to all tank classes:

Irreproachable Faith Discipline, mitigate 20% of incoming DD/DoT spell dmg up to x amount, mitigate 20% incoming melee dmg 2 min duration or x amount of dmg.
Darklord's Imperfect Infidelity Discipline, same as above.
Warlord's Backbone Discipline, same maybe have it be 25% or 30% mitigation for DD/DoT/Melee.

Warlord's Dismissal
Knight's Dismissal

Drops all non-tanks on hate list to 1 hate. Instant. 60 second refresh.
Hear me out on the last one. With DPS on the increase with each expansion and each class gaining in the burst department. There are certain classes that can easily burst initially for damage in the millions and snap aggro, regardless of the amount of hate already generated by the tank. I'm not looking for this ability to reset hate to 1 on a warrior if a paladin hits it or any of those combinations.

There are 3 areas that I feel need to be addressed to bring better balance to the knights.

1. Leave SK ae agro alone, thats their niche. Bring paladin single target agro up. That should be our niche.

2. Harm touch is capable of critting for over 7 mil damage under the right conditions. Paladins class defining equivalent is Lay of hands and is capped at 180k hp heal followed by a whopping 26.5k heal a tick for 36 seconds. Thats about half my raid buffed hp on the initial burst heal. Can a guy get a freakin complete heal? There is no angle that this can be painted in to even remotely justify this gross imbalance.
Maybe if we roll that steaming pile of crap Act of Valor into Lay of hands. AE complete heal for the entire raid, except I do not have to die to pull it off. At that point maybe they are proportionate opposites.
Just for giggles a 180k heal for 54 people is 9.7 million hps healed. It would take 40 Lay of Hands to top 7 million hps healed on the initial burst. Again, it would take 40 casts of LOH to balance 1 single Harm touch for 7million hp dmg. Mind-blowingly out of balance.

3. Thought Leech vs Marrs gift. Every single year I wonder how the hell Thought Leech keeps on slipping through the cracks. I am by no means calling for a nerf. I just want Marrs gift to return 100% of my mana instead of the 1/6th of my mana pool that it does now.

SK's should out dps paladins, because we out heal them.

In most other ways I am satisfied with the relative balance between the knights.

Paladins were the favored knight from VOA, and ROF through COTF.
SKs have enjoyed the favored knight status from TDS on.
I do agree its about time the pendulum swings.

I don't really care if you want to boost Paladins the issue I have is you are doing it via trying to make one class look OP while neglecting some of the advantages you have and yes Paladins do have abilities that are useful that an SK does not have. Its your approach in wanting to boost Paladins that I don't agree with. First the title of your post basically says it all. Your focus is on SK's and not Paladins even though your end goal is to make Paladins better. A more reasonable approach would be to focus on Paladins and leave other classes out of the mix. Come up with creative ideas and solutions to the problems you perceive the class has. When you are attempting to bring up something via destroying something else it often leads to conflict instead of resolution. As a guild leader you should understand this to be a fundamental mindset. How the SK's in your guild can stand behind you and respect your perspective is beyond me. If you are successful in your campaign and they get nerfed just so you don't feel inferior how will this impact their relationship with you as a leader? Personally I would cut my ties and move on. This whole thread is non constructive. It should be nuked and a new one should be started focusing on what you and other Paladins perceive to be areas of improvement on the class rather than why you think sk's are OP compared to you and should potentially be nerfed into the ground. Even if you are coming in with suggestions to improve paladins its a little late as you set the tempo of this thread with a negative nature vs one class instead of trying to bring up another.

There is a perfectly reasonable justification - mobs have many times the hps of players.

Other than that, everyone agrees AoV sucks. It should be a group hps balance ability like clerics Divine Arb but slightly worse.

There is some serious downplaying of paladin abilities ITT though.

Some people like to see balance. Others like to play OP, it's nothing more than your or his opinion.
and how do you know the SKs in his guild don't think the same thing

I understand balance but in this case we are talking about two different types of balance. The first type is a balance between class and game and the second type is class vs class. Is your average sk really swarming current content? Are they just walking into any ROS zone and pulling everything at will without thought or risk of death? If the answer is yes the "average" sk is doing this there is a balance issue vs content. Most of the complaining here seems to be about the other type of balance being class vs class. The whole tempo of the thread from the title says it all. Its class envy which is only good if you play that class. There could have been more constructive thought out into this thread to say hey devs how about us paladins without trying to bring down another class. As far as how the sks in their guild feel I have no idea but I find it hard to believe that they are reading this going "yes please nerf my toon" I mean seriously who ever said please make my class weaker or have less utility? Certainly not the posters on these threads who have been nerfed over the years.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on Harm Touch then.
If the goal of HT is to slay one single opponent in one shot, sure.
On opponents that have too many hit points to outright slay them, then it should have a far lower cap to the total dmg.

Lay of Hands certainly should be at the very least a complete heal on whomever I cast it on.
My argument that it would take 40 LOH to equal one critted HT only serves to highlight the glaring imbalance.

I would gladly see Act of Valor changed to a version of Divine Arb.
I would take the same effect that it has right now, with there being a major debuff on the paladin instead of death.
To be honest, the way things have been going between the knights balance, I am surprised that SK's have not received a version of Act of Valor called Act of Deceit that AE one-shot kills every mob in the vicinity of the SK and heals the SK to full HME. I expect to see that next expansion now though!

As for the downplaying of paladin abilities, I echo that it is difficult not to be frustrated when you compare the two classes.
Paladins do have some cool abilities/spells, but when you look at the SK equivalent, it is rather deflating.
Valiant Defense vs Deceitful Deflection, Harmonious, epic 2.0's, HT vs LOH, Thought Leech vs Marr's Gift, Instant terrors vs slow cast crushes and stuns. Every single one of those areas the SK's have the advantage, but hey we can be a terrible cleric.
Give me a break.
These are all areas that the abilities should be overlapping inverse equivalents but there is glaring disparity.

I remember what it was like in COTF. SK's were a joke and unwanted on raids because a paladin was so much better.
I was happy for SK's when they got a long overdue boost.
I do not think it is unfair to say that now the roles are reversed and the paladin boost is long overdue.

I am absolutely not whining. I can perform my roles, but anyone who thinks that paladins are not still lagging behind SK's in every one of those aspects I noted except healing must be playing a different game.

I don't think it's right to try to "balance" the two by making them have the same numbers. One is for NPC damage, the other is for PC heals. Of course you see the flaw in healing a PC for 7 million HPs.

I do feel Lay Hands is very ineffective right now, though. The way it works now, it sounds very easy to waste the spell--take a big spike of damage, cast lay on hands, take another big spike and die. Or take a big spike of damage, cast lay on hands, well hey a cleric was in the middle of healing you anyway. (Disclaimer, I don't know if this happens often, but it just seems like a problem with the way it works to me.) It takes a few non-trivial NPCs a few seconds to kill a paladin, I guess. I think it would be more appreciable if LH acted to counter these, giving a somewhat reliable chance at out-healing the DPS of one, two, maybe three NPCs over a couple of ticks, maybe by beefing up the HOT portion, maybe by absorbing some of the damage. Something that acts to just keep you alive, like half-invincible, for a tick or two. Like half-divine aura but still being able to take action, attacking and casting.

Thought Leech is powerful if it crits. I've had it underperform more often than not. It is not the Staunch Recovery that Allayna is exaggerating it to be here. I know, I have ways to increase my crit chance and nuke amounts... but so do paladins. So it would be nice if Marr's Gift could crit on the amount restored too. And they could increase the chances of that happening by focusing appropriately before hitting Gift.

What is the purpose of a title but to grab attention. Apparently I've gotten yours.
I never said SKs were OP, not once. I said their exact counterpart discs/abilities are out of balance with their counterpart knight. You have said multiple times that I have downplayed other paladin abilities. Like what....curing, marginal healing, buffing? I never said that a knowledgeable paladin cannot succeed at tanking a raid boss or group content, but it is more difficult than their knight counterpart.

Definition of paladin

: a trusted military leader (as for a medieval prince)
: a leading champion of a cause