SOME DEVS HAVE GOT SOME SPLAINING TO DO

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by SK_WAR_MAIN, Oct 23, 2020.

  1. Wulfhere Augur

    Having the best passive self-healing is why SK are so powerful and popular to play.

    For warrior, I think the balance point is simple. Warrior needs to be able have similar HP and DPS as a single, group game, blue-con NPC they might encounter. What I mean is that a level 50 warrior in defiant gear can defeat a single blue con NPC solo. They will have enough DPS to kill the mob before their own HP reaches zero, without any outside help or consumable potions. A level 115 warrior should be able to do the same thing, using their own abilities. It can be a close fight, but it should be winnable.

    What does that fight look like at level 115 for a warrior? Consider a 100k base DPS mob with 5M HP. A duel-wielding warrior does say 200k DPS, so that warrior needs a virtual HP pool of say 2.51M HP to win that fight.

    A warrior can mitigate the mob down to <65K DPS for 3 minutes, and chain/stack other mitigations with various limits. Since the answer to the next 2 questions is "No", a warrior now needs to mitigate/avoid enough damage to win in 1/4 of the time. Unless we want a 500k HP warrior sustaining 800K dps vs a typical mob, then they need a lot more toughness.

    Can a warrior boost their HP pool to anywhere near apx 2.51M HP? For the duration of the fight? No.

    Can a warrior passively heal anywhere near 100K HP/sec? With HP regen, heal procs, and activated abilities? No.

    Meanwhile, a knight can answer all 3 of those survival questions with a qualified "Yes".

    As proof that the warrior class is out of balance, I offer the hyper healing cleric class that is so 1-dimensional they cannot accomplish anything on their own either.
  2. Kylo Elder

    I don't agree with warrior have regen because Warrior are alway the best damage mitigation tank and have massive HP. I think we should stick to those and not try to change our class. our damage mitigation should increase and our hp need a big boost. warrior alway need a cleric so let keep it that way.
  3. Chaosflux Augur

    The problem with giving 1 tank class incredibly more power in mitigation then all the others is the same problem that has always existed, they become hands down the best tank because content will be tuned around that mitigation.

    This has already happened multiple times.

    In order to make warriors better, you cant just slap another 30% mitigation or some arbitrary thing on them, you need to boost secondary and tertiary survival methods to match the other tanks secondary and tertiary survival methods.

    We saw this half a decade ago with how much of a gamechanger Shield stance was and how it created a scenario where warriors were t he best tank in ALL scenarios.

    Same reason SKs are so much better now, they have more active mitigation and more (useful) self healing then the other 2 tanks.

    If we want to boost warriors (which I am in agreement they need boosts) then we need to do that in a way that will not create massive disparities IMO.

    Make their abilities last full duration firstly and then alternative methods to match knights secondary and tertiary survival methods being second.
    Skuz and Tsavo like this.
  4. Kylo Elder

    increase mitigation help warrior tank raid boss better while Knight are better in the group game with their heal and tap. it alway like that and it should alway be like that. I don't think an increase mitigation will do any good in the group game. a Decade ago Knight doesnt heal or tap for 30-40k hp.
  5. Chaosflux Augur

    It hasn't always been like that, SKs have been top tank for like a solid 4 years lol because they have more mitigation tools and passive healing tools that scale very well (lich sting being the prime example) and keeps pace with the speed at which damage goes out.

    And a decade ago was in HOT and I assure you both Sks and paladins could heal for 30/40k or significantly more than that on double crits or twin crits, but active self healing is very dependent on timing and is subject to overhealing (which is literally wasted healing).

    They also have made an effort to make tanks interchangeable and seem to want to keep it that way, so if that's the intention just slamming a massive active mitigation onto one tank is not going to achieve that goal.

    The ways P2aa laid out in his post are probably the only reasonable way for the dev team to proceed without creating disparity.
    Skuz likes this.
  6. Wulfhere Augur

    Agreed. That was for warrior and mitigation.

    Once we had WAR with incredible mitigation and they were "hands down the best tank".
    Now we have SK with incredible virtual HP from self-healing and they are "hands down the best tank".
    Now we have PAL with wonderful virtual HP from self-healing and they are hands down a better tank.

    I'm simply framing the problem on 2 points, not just 1 of mitigation. The warrior has lost on the other point of virtual HP and there is no clear answer yet as to how to re-balance that.
    Skuz likes this.
  7. Chaosflux Augur

    Seems to me they need to be able to spend endurance actively either to prevent the next hit like repel or they need to spend endurance to recover HP.

    Call it Battleblades yellow mana of matchless endurance or someshit
  8. Szilent Augur

    58780 Thwart Rk. III 113 853 0s 15s T15 12s+ n/a Self
    Max Hits: 3 Incoming Hit Successes
    9: Absorb Melee Damage: 90%, Total: 67599
    10: Absorb Spell Damage: 90%, Total: 67599

    versus

    58532 Aggravate Recourse III 0 0s 0s 12s+ n/a Self
    Max Hits: 2 Incoming Hit Successes
    3: Absorb Melee Damage: 50%, Total: 33178
    +
    61003 Bracing Stance VI (Shield Splinter recourse) 0 0s 0s 12s+ n/a Self
    Max Hits: 2 Incoming Hit Successes
    1: Absorb Melee Damage: 40%, Total: 45539

    knight one guards spell damage, too? but that's rarely relevant while tanking since the melee portion gets the guard knocked off immediately.
  9. Chaosflux Augur

    Sounds like you need yellow mana heals then
  10. Chaosflux Augur

    Also knight one is 6 charges with AA for transparency.
  11. Szilent Augur

    No thanks. "tank who can heal themselves" class exists, it's not Warrior

    Number of charges is irrelevant versus hard hitters. Ditto absorb%; only the absorb cap matters.
  12. Wulfhere Augur

    Yes because we keep ours on cool down, while not tanking too, to mitigate AE spell damage while we DPS. This ability also hints that warriors are expected to tank more then knights.
    Szilent likes this.
  13. Chaosflux Augur

    Charges certainly matters, each charge is good for 1 hit, and then blows off unless I am misremembering how it works.

    And for your first point, ok then what do you think besides the obvious of making warrior stuff actually last its duration would be viable alternatives.
    Skuz likes this.
  14. Szilent Augur

    yeah but it's not 67k per hit, it's 67k total. if that's gone in 1 hit (it's usually 2), then the other charges are meaningless
  15. Chaosflux Augur

    False its per hit

    Edit: I double checked myself and I was wrong, however it was changed at some point, originally in HOT at the introduction of the ability it did function that way and I forgot.
  16. Tucoh Augur

    The current paradigm of warriors being great tanks when they have healers backing them up is fine. There's no reason to change it. I'd be good with your idea of having expensive abilities that cost endurance, but I don't really trust EQ developers to balance it well so I'd probably be apprehensive about its implementation.
  17. Kylo Elder

    I don't agree with this post. warrior atm is at their weakest.
  18. Chaosflux Augur

    IDK if that tracks, all the tanks are pretty strong, one of them just happens to be strongest and its not warrior.
  19. Micker Elder

    I said this for years, they never should have created the Warrior, Cleric and Wizard class. They are way too single job focused and to try to balance them, with other tank/healing/dps classes, is a nightmare. They were and are classes that shine in raids and are the heroes of the raids, but don't offer as much in the group game. Not sure wizards even shine in raids now. Don't play one of those narrowly focused classes if you just group.
    Gokulot likes this.
  20. Kylo Elder

    now of day you don't need a warrior to tank raid boss. Knight can do the same job easily and also bring other beneficial skill to the raid. As time go by the warrior class will fade like the wizard lol. oh well.
    Cadira likes this.

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