Discussion in 'Tanks' started by SK_WAR_MAIN, Oct 23, 2020.

  1. Wulfhere Augur

    Another warrior thing is the abilitiy to massively increase their HP pool temporarily. These abilities help to exemplify a warrior's toughness in battle.

    Warlord's Tenacity and Dissident Shielding could get significant boosts, to SPA 69 and 214 respectively, i.e. enough to marginalize a quad 80k/hit round every second.

    It still requires a priest class to replenish the larger HP pool, but everyone knows how that can help mitigate damage spikes.
  2. Tucoh Augur

    Plate tanks' ability to mitigate damage has gotten too high relative to other classes. It's due for some serious stagnation. DBG isn't in a position to do that intentionally, much less sensibly, so we'll get what we get but I wouldn't mind seeing warriors/paladins/shadowknights revert much closer to the other classes.

    Also AE aggro is too strong across all tanks
    Raptorjesus5 likes this.
  3. Wulfhere Augur

    I agree that a good way to protect HP is high degrees of avoidance.

    For some to say that warriors don't want to be able to replenish their HP pool, well then the only other options are to inflate (max) HP or protect HP (from decrements). If a knight can replenish their HPs by millions, then a warrior should have avoidance and mitigation that matches that amount within the limits of their HP pool. In other words, all 3 tanks should have similar "virtual HP pools" that keep them standing.
    Skuz likes this.
  4. Dre. Augur

    HP regen for all characters needs another zero at the end.

    Maybe two zeroes.
    Skuz likes this.
  5. p2aa Augur

    Correct me if i'm wrong, but I see no Dzarn anymore in the beta forum AA list maker, and his name is not in red anymore. There is another red name there in beta forum.
    Therefore it's likely Dzarn has left, and there is a new dev in charge of AA ?

    That being said, yeah it feels like we only had DPS AA increase, and nothing on survival / aggro, as if the warrior as a melee class was seen as another DPS melee class ?
  6. Syylke_EMarr Augur

    Looks like SKs are basically in the same boat. The only real tanking AA increases are the standard CA/CS bumps. A couple of the procs and focuses got bumped, but the overall theme of the increases is not tank-based, but more DPS-focused (i.e. any tanking increases seem to be as a result of boosting the DPS-based AAs).
  7. Szilent Augur

    This is much better. Adds value to higher heal volumes, too, sideways buffing real healers whose good big heals frequently go to waste over our hp :)

    A good ask might be dramatically dropping the reuse time on Warlord's Tenacity, like to 10 minutes instead of 20.

    Giving one's self more leeway to BE healed, making one's self less likely to die in between others' heals - that's the way to warrior :)
    Skuz and Xeladom like this.
  8. Kleitus_Xegony Augur

    I'd prefer they find a way to push stances out to more classes. If a rogue wants to take less damage, then equip something like a shield and take the loss on their offhand DPS.

    Another way would be off hand only weapons that give a similar bonus as a shield (with or without stances) but aren't tailored for pure DPS. Increase parry percentages or something.
  9. p2aa Augur

    Your situation is still much better than ours.
    Regarding Class and Focus AA tabs, SK got more ranks on 22 AA, Paladins on 18 AA, and Warriors on 5 AA. I realize knights have probably more Focus AA than warriors, but then the number of AA with more ranks seems clearly too low for warriors.
  10. Kylo Elder

    Warrior is definitely falling behind compare to Knight class. Warrior need an innate ability that everytime it go up against Raid boss they will have an automatic +11% damage mitigation, Tier 1 group boss 5% and tier2 group boss 8% damage mitigation or as they go up against stronger foe their mitigation increases, and Warrior hp should have 30-40k more than Knight class at all time. Knight class heal is just way over power right now compare to mitigation. what is 1-2% damage mitigation when you can heal or tap for 30-40k hp and Knight have not just 1 tap or heal they got multiple tap and heal. I don't agree with warrior need higher innate hp regen. Warrior forte is damage reduction and massive amount of hp they have to have to take hits.
  11. Kleitus_Xegony Augur

    Please spend a few minutes looking at magelo profiles. It's not the best way (because of how people pad their stats for their profiles) but it does show that the max base HP potential is 435,206 for warrior, 391,102 for Shadow Knights, and 388,553 for Paladins. That's a roughly 10% bonus to HPs that warriors have all the time. Warriors also take lower max hits, have better defensive skills, etc...

    Most tanks (WAR/SK/PAL) die in raids because of a spike in damage, the death of their healers, or their own stupidity. Warriors are better at handling the first reason, Knights are better at handling the second situation and we all fall down on reason number three. This applies to the group game as well. The limited amount of beta testing I got to do for raids, showed a nice advantage for warrior tanks (at least at the start of everything) because mobs were able to hit for at least 140k or more. On a quad hit, that's roughly 10k-12k HPs more damage that a Knight is taking each combat round than a warrior. That leads to more issues with dealing with the total damage from spikes which is what warriors are better at. I didn't do much testing of the group game mobs, I would assume that it should be a similar situation in the group game.

    Your idea was novel but I don't see the devs making it easier to tank T2 boss mobs than it is to Tank T1 boss mobs. Plus I'm not sure how you'd propose to implement it because simply going by a difference in levels could make it more advantageous to tank with a warrior at 114 than at 115 which obviously isn't what you meant.
  12. Kylo Elder

    if you click the mage HP base Pally and SK is at Pally is 409k and SK is 402k some of them have Heroic agility aug.
    now with a 140k the different between knight and warrior is only 2% damage mitigation. with a 2% damage mitigation on 140k hit it only negate about 3k and if you want to be correct only 2.8k but let just say warrior have a 5% damage mitigate more than other knight which I swear it is not 5% it is between 2-3% damage mitigation ( I forgot where I read this on the forum) that is 7k damage different
    and compare that to a tap or heal that is 13k+ base tap or heal without them even critical and if it critical it in the 30-40k heal. This will get even worse for the warrior when he go against mob that hit for 30k max damage with a 2-3% damage mitigation or even a 5% damage mitigation compare to Knight tap or healing in the 30-40k+ hp than those mitigation doesn't mean much. this is the Reason why you see Knight running around tanking half the zone without needing a cleric. I don't want knight to be nerf what I want is for warrior to have a boost to a point where some people would like to choose a warrior to play and not have a million knight running around.
  13. Kleitus_Xegony Augur

    I forgot to remove the "AC" filter each time I was changing classes on the search... (that's on me)

    Pure HPs:
    Warrior = 435,206
    Paladin = 409,289
    Shadow Knight = 402,939

    Nobody wants to try and sort out the aug differences - stupid Magelo epeen fights, which is why I said it wasn't a great way of making the comparison. All three of those dudes had heroic stamina augs, so the comparison is somewhat valid. Warriors do have a HP advantage over both Knights, which is one of the main things you wanted. Both base and temporary abilities favor warriors over knights.

    The problem is, if the devs even looked at your post - they would just wonder for a few minutes and consider the request completed. You're simply asking for something that already exists.

    The complaint about Knights running around tapping mobs for heals has nothing to do with the HP advantage that warriors have over knights or the mitigation advantages that warriors have over knights (both base and disc based).

    My personal opinion when compared to warriors.
    Shadow Knights (especially good ones) are probably over powered in the group game.
    Paladins (almost exclusively good ones) are probably over powered in ToV / CoV (less so in CoV due to more live mobs) in the group game.

    That changes in the raid game though. Warriors are still the premier tank even though you can use an SK or Paladin if needed. It's no longer a game breaker if you get 2 warriors and 8 knights to login because you can use the knights instead of a warrior even if it is less optimal. I think this is a good thing - all 3 classes within the "tank" archetype being able to step in and be a main tank even though one of them is preferred.

    The reason you see so many knights running around is because the gameplay is more "fun" and less simplistic. I don't mean that to sound like playing a warrior at a high level is simple, just that the game play is less flexible as far as tanking, healing (group or self), and DPS compared to the two knights.

    Normally, it's SKs that people make these complaints about but Paladins were able to enjoy it while in ToV because of the massive number of undead mobs in the zones. SKs are still the "best" group game tank though even with all of the undead in ToV.

    There are lots of players that would support additions to the warrior class that make it more "fun" or even cleaned things up to make it simpler without all of the button-clicking. Going back to huge differences between warriors and knights in pure, base mitigation (without discs / AAs) isn't likely to be done by the devs or well received by the players other than the vocal warriors who hate anyone coming close to their turf with regards to tanking. Increasing that mitigation cap makes it harder for all the other non-tank classes as well, because you still have to make tanking difficult enough to require a knight instead of something else if you don't have a warrior at hand. Otherwise, there's no reason for the knight classes.

    tldr; Warriors still have a base HP and base mitigation advantage over knights. Most people still find knights more fun to play in the group game due to their flexibility.
  14. Andarriel Everquest player since 2000

    Well lets hope so as it was a undead expansion!

  15. Kylo Elder

    All I want is a balance because as of this moment warrior mitigation doesn't make up the imbalance of the other tank class. Warrior mitigation need to be raise to atleast 11% against raid boss and 5-8% against group boss and give warrior more base HP. also the way you talk you want your class aka the SK to be top group tank and also be able to tank Raid boss which is already happen. Pally and SK already able to tank raid boss so what is the different. as time go by warrior are falling behind.
  16. Wulfhere Augur

    To me the imbalance between the warrior and knight classes is, as I said above, the "virtual hp pool".

    As a paladin (or SK), I can routinely solo a fight and self heal for millions of HP. My paladin's buffed hp of say 400k hp (keeping it simple) combined with mana and healing abilities that let me heal beyond 6 million hp, beyond 10M even. That's what I do to win a single fight. Shadowknights can do the same (or better). It's really really hard to kill a knight without subjecting them to overwhelmingly fast damage.

    Where is a warrior's 10M virtual HP pool? ... sustained by their own abilities of: mitigation, avoidance, and replenishment. Within the standing limit of their actual HP pool, they can't do it. It requires a supporting priest class. That's the difference between the classes and how and why they are played.
    Dre. and Skuz like this.
  17. Szilent Augur

    I am happy with this difference.

    Best class in game at having their hand held to cross the street. Applies to tanking and to dps.

    Best in game at standing up & fighting after dying.

    Could use some improvement & smoothing out on UI button proliferation.
  18. p2aa Augur

    The baseline difference between knights and warriors is + 1% for warriors, so no there isn't any magical "lower max hits" and baseline "better defensive skills" for warriors.

    Warriors have in theory, but read the forums , the theory doesn't work atm, because warriors discs are fading too fast against the mob damage. This means that warriors are ending with no worthwhile tool to use for some time, until the next one is back. No self healing ability to compensate for the void.

    CoV just made it worse than ToV, tanks need to use tank glyphs to survive, and knights can use them too. Knights under tank glyph are tanking as well as warriors.
    The solution would be to massively improve the caps of warrior disc, and reduce at the same time the impact of tank glyph.

    As said by Wulfhere, you forgot the virtual HP pool advantage, which negates the base HP advantage, and is tieing with temporary HP boost abilities for warriors (these abilities aren't + 10 million HP, but as being instant cast versus knight having to cast I consider this roughly equal), most of these temporary HP boost abilities have a longer reuse time than the casting time of knight self healing though.

    Besides the reasons I gave that make warriors not the premier tank anymore, there is also the healer word, a cleric of a high end raid guild posted that he was not seeing any difference between a paladin and a warrior raid tanking, and was seing a SK doing better overall than paladins and warriors.
    If warriors were spiking less than knights, then healers would be able to notice it somehow. I'm sure also that Machin Shin warriors are using their tanking disc constantly on rotation even to tank adds (there are no more low hitters in raids, adds hit hard like bosses in recent expansions).

    On the hardest content, warriors keep a slight advantage over knights, but there is no more a premier tank, the gap is very close that all three tanks are premier tanks now for raid. I agree that It's healthy that all three tanks can tank in raid, but there would still need to be a bigger advantage for warrior, advantage that I don't see atm.

    As I said it, the best (and simple to do) solution at a start would be to make the warrior disc cap last their full duration in raids, and reduce the tanking glyph impact. This would give a bigger advantage to warriors.
    Secondly, warriors need also something to compensate for self healing power of knights, many ideas have been given in these boards, more avoidance, big SPA 55 rune tools, massive boost to self healing abilities, devs pick one :)
    Skuz likes this.
  19. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Seems to me that what there needs to be is a way to recoup HP for warriors that is not as good as what Knights can do but balances out vs their greater defensive ability.

    They had some boost regen AA but it was nowhere near what Knights can generate in "virtual HP" - something along that line would make much more sense, a regen boost aa that helped bridge the rather vast gap between Warrior & knight Virtual HP pool. That regen would be all but meaningless in the raid context but it would help a ton in the group game, just by virtue of the sheer amount of damage that comes in during raids being so much more than in groups.
  20. Chaosflux Augur

    Yeh active self healing falls by the wayside in the raid game the faster the game gets, damage spikes are such they cannot be reacted to they either kill you or not. Where as passive healing via guardian/carapace/armor and lich sting has a much stronger value since it is not subject to GCD.

    And another thing that doesnt help as much as it used to is heal boosts (like hold the line or paladin AOTI) however those are very powerful still in the group game because they are a force multiplier.

    So maybe alittle boost to regen ability, another hold the line type ability, and a massive increase to hit caps on warrior discs that are blowing off well to early would work?
    Skuz likes this.