When you’re talking about sheer mitigation/hp boost abilities between Knights and Warriors, it’s not even a close competition. Pretty much every knowledgeable tank realizes this and it’s become completely undebatable sense the SCR nerf. Warrior -Culminating Stand: 3 minute duration, 10 minute 30 second reuse -Dichotomic Shield: 1 minute duration, 5 minute reuse -Pain Doesn’t Hurt: 3 minute duration, 5 minute reuse Paladin: -Holy Guardian: 2 minute duration, 12 minute reuse -Karzok Mantle: 1 minute duration, 15 minute reuse -Armor of Mercy: 2 min duration, 7 minute 30 second reuse Note: None of these are stackable There’s hardly a point in even going into the plethora of other relevant mitigation/hp boosts Warriors have such as CoA bp, RoS bp, Warlord’s tenacity, Imperator etc. The battle is won without those, they just add icing to the cake to ensure Warriors maintain a mitigation/hp edge through multiple avenues such as base, discipline/ability uptime and being able to stack many of their powerful abilities together at will Factoring in DPS, aggro and tankability across the board, I personally feel Developers are coming closer to achieving balance among the 3 tanks than they have in awhile. The vast majority of Warriors are mostly pleased with their current circumstances all things weighed in. Spamming that problems exist where they don’t or acting as if Wars somehow have the short end of the stick in modern EQ(TankQuest) is beyond silly. Last Stand line: farmed out in weaker form Weapon Proficiencies: farmed out in weaker form Phalanx of One: Nerfed/farmed out in weaker form NTTB line: original version heavily nerfed The mitigation horse has been beat to death literally from every aspect. There’s virtually no routes that remain that haven’t already been ventured down. It’s a tricky thing to balance and Warriors have a very nice edge currently between it and HP. Everything in game is already tankable with Dual Wield/2hs including raid bosses. That isn’t screaming more mitigation needed
At how much you value all the self healing tools you have with heal crit AA etc ? You clearly downplay knight's abilities there. If knight's mitigation would be so inferior to warrior's one, then you would be unable to one tank raid bosses. Your average hit taken is higher than warrior, but you compensate somewhere else. The fact that you can do it shows that knights aren't weak like you try to pretend it. Also, what is the value of knight's self healing in group content ? You destroy warriors there. You can tank content without needing a healer. At how much power you value this fact ? That's false. Only a minority of warriors on these boards don't want any change. The vast majority of warriors suggested mitigation boost options in the relevant thread. There are also some knights that suggested also some mitigation boost to warriors. No, warriors don't have a very nice edge. You have yet been answered on the DW / 2H tanking thing. You don't avoid raid bosses or adds hits. So the only downside of using 2H is you loose AC mitigation. Knights can also 2H raid bosses.
I would like to form the line for the small minority who wish Stances would go away. Absolutely ruined the fun of tanking in raids. WTB harder mobs and no mitigation/tank disc improvements.
You go from claiming Knight mitigation is clearly better than a Warrior, to then asking how valuable are heals. Just because a Paladin can survive an encounter with self heals, doesn’t mean their heals are as efficient as a Clerics. If a Paladin can tank an encounter, it doesn’t automatically equate as efficient at it as Warrior. Likewise, if Paladin damage suffices to defeat a mob, it doesn’t mean their DPS is equal to a Warrior. These are extreme basics that don’t require any advanced spreadsheets or parses. I value my Paladins heals. Just like I value my Wars mitigation/HP and DPS advantage. These are some of their many distinguishing factors All classes have pros and cons. You are the only one complaining that the clearly intended pros of the Warrior class don’t exist. All three tank classes are in a good state, hence the reason for TankQuest jokes throughout live servers. Wars are definitely not considered nor at bottom of the pile. Since the SCR nerf on Knights, Warriors have obtained a larger mitigation advantage than most other eras. This is fact, not opinion Continue to ask for more mitigation etc. if you like though. I’ll be in a line more so similar to Fintank. There’s many other creative routes for improvement that can be taken versus just plain ole mitigation. That goes for all three tank classes. No more powerful mitigation abilities at the moment please
I feel like you think you are in the majority, but almost all of the warriors that I have talked to think that Warriors are in a VERY good place right now in comparison to the other tanks. Any knight or warrior that thinks warriors need mitigation boosts need to start clicking more of their abilities.
Warrior are in third place compare to other Tank on over all. problem with pally is they are good it just that they lack dps that is why they are not popular.
I know what pick zone is. It just that I don't know the term. I remember they first did that when progression server come out and that is years ago. So what if I don't know what pick term is. That got nothing to do with Tanks. and to tell you they first did that when Lockjaw progression server come out. Also I come to bug report to report a bug.
In this line you disagree with me. You also brought up a class which I had not. I didn't bring up rangers, necros, mages, or any other classes who have abilities that allow them to solo/survive under certain circumstances better than a warrior. I was only talking about tanks. So please stay on topic. Then you turn right around and say exactly what I said. It's very seldom you post something on these forums and someone doesn't show up looking to argue just for the sake of arguing.
I know knights recently had spell absorption start working on their line of spam mitigation discs, but I've noticed as a warrior just the spell absorption abilities like mage hunter and dicho save my frequently. I think tanks are pretty balanced atm overall, they definitely have their spots where they shine. Mitigation is ridiculous compared to other classes. I don't think any tanks need a boost there, maybe more reactive type abilities.
You brought up another class, “Clerics” and how Knights survive better than Warriors without them. I did you a favor and just went on ahead and substituted them out for any healer class. I then brought up Rangers and stated how they fare superiorly to Wars as well when it comes to surviving without a healer. Hint: Meeting this criteria has never and does not signify better tank or imbalance. Hopefully you’re following thus far as it’s very much on topic and exact same line of logic. As you said, I agreed with you on your premise of “Knights survive better than Wars without a healer”. So much so I brought up another class that does as well. That’s been the case for all EQ’s lifespan. Still extremely poor logic to use as the main vocal point for being a supposed 3rd string tank. Warriors could have permanent Knight full disc mitigation(hi pre nerf Shield Prof) and they would still find themselves surviving just as poorly with no healer. Warriors have always lacked the ability to replenish their HP bar and probably always will. Using this as the main criteria to demonstrate their some type of second rate tank is beyond silly this many years into game IMO. It sounds like you will really enjoy your recently rolled Pal/SK though. Hopefully you join in on the making of videos with no healers
C'mon man this is a reach and you know it. This is an assumption of my thoughts. I have never said anything that would lead anyone to believe I think warriors are second rate tanks. I love my warrior and I have said in posts before they are where they should be. I am pretty sure you can also find me saying that we don't need knight abilities of any kind. I do stand behind my thoughts on imbalance. I get the feeling you are a knight on defense. You think I am calling for a nerf without calling for a nerf maybe? Not the case I don't call for nerfs. I do like them both. I like the SK the most and I don't intend to raid on either. Just going to get this swarm killing thing down. Pulling every mob in the back room in ST at once and hardly spiking does look fun.
You start answering by posting lie. I never said knight's mitigation was better than warrior's one. I said the contrary in fact, warriors still get an edge, but knights are very close. I'm not sure to understand the rest of your post. It's like i would post : If a warrior can AE aggro in an event, it doesn't mean their AE aggro is equal to SK. Or if a a druid can heal a tank in a raid, it doesn't automatically equate as efficient as if it was a cleric. What does it bring ? No this is not a fact. You are still thinking warriors use all their tools at the same time to obtain unmatched mitigation, but only bad warriors are doing this. Because they end weaker when all these mitigation tools have faded. Knights are clearly capable to tank the harder hitters for an enough long duration. You are more "spiky" than warriors, but you can still do it. A while ago, before proficiencies, you could MT raid bosses the time warriors recover for example, then warriors were taking back. Now you are perfectly capable to one tank an event from start to end. This is a big difference. There is no "larger mitigation advantage". The fact that there is some knight that ask for some mitigation boost for warriors is also an indication that this is your opinion, not a fact. Btw this is also my opinion on the subject.
Are you raiding high end content ? Do you have an idea of what good knights can do in raid ? The warriors I have talked to in game that are raiding latest content don't think like you. Also, the majority of warriors on these boards have suggested some mitigation improvement ideas.This is a fact.
I disagree with you. Pretty consistently. Almost thoroughly. Like, both with your views on warrioring, and with with your claims to a plurality of partisanship.
Would you care to mention what guild or alliance your raiding in and exactly what content your raiding? Might add some context to your observations. Being Mr. Anonymous and saying I raid high end content really means nothing to most.
Apparently you and several other that push back against them are not a majority, or better respected on the boards here according to them. In fact I don't ever recall a Majority of Warriors that post here ever backing them.
I'm raiding high end content, I posted a parse of Silverwing from my own gameparse log. I can tell you that I'm not in a guild whose leadership encourages its members to troll threads doing personal attacks. That being said, as your officer / guild leader is fan of josh threads, has the warrior team made a rotation of gut punch and saw massive reduction of hits on raid bosses per fabulous josh advice ? (There is some irony btw on this question for those who would not understand it).
You didn't understand the pendulum sentence. Let me rephrase it. I realize it can not be clear at a first read. There has always been in EQ a mitigation gap between warriors and knights, in favor of warriors. I use the word pendulum for the following thing : If this gap is getting closer, then the pendulum is in favor of knights. If the gap is getting farther, then the pendulum is in favor of warriors. We disagree on the size of this gap.
