Raid content for the non 1%

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Windance, Sep 11, 2019.

  1. Fooba Elder

    Raid content for the non 1% = last expansion’s raid content.
    Whulfgar, Wulfhere and Brohg like this.
  2. svann Augur

    Though I agree that tier 0 raids would be a nice gesture for these people, I have to say that my belief is that people miss raid mechanics not because they are slow or old, but because they are too focused on winning the parse. If it were possible to ban dps parse overlays so people cant watch it while the fight is ongoing, that would go a long way towards correcting people's lack of attention. To be clear -
    1. that would be up to the raidleader not daybreak
    2. I realize its probably not possible since people would use it no matter what the RL says.
  3. Sancus Augur

    You're welcome to add TBL; the data used for the graph is listed as raw text in the post I linked. I opted not to because I think it would unfairly skew the comparison against TBL, as it hasn't even been out a whole year. As I mentioned in my previous post in this thread, though, just comparing TBL out through mid September to TBM, EoK, and RoS, we currently have 28 guilds with at least one kill, versus 39, 39, and 36 respectively.

    This is related to the larger problem with that graph, which is that it tracks total kills, including kills years after the fact. To be fair, there aren't that many super late kills, but it does still skew it a bit in favor of older expansions. The simplest solution would be to limit it to in-era kills, but that skews it in favor of newer expansions. A lot of older expansions only were out for 6 months, and there were multiple expansions of viable raid content. During TSS, a guild clearing Anguish for the first time is still actively raiding rewarding content.

    If I had unlimited time, I'd make the graph the # of guilds that beat a raid that gave better-than-group gear (measured via stats, not foci) in a given year. The graph wouldn't be able to start until whenever PoP gear became obsolete, but I think that would give the fairest representation of active raiding guilds over time, which is what I'm really trying to get at. There's not a great way to put together that data, though, especially because gear wasn't nearly as standardized in early expansions as it is now. There's also general non-reporting risk, as I imagine there were/are some guilds that opt not to report progress.
    No, not even close. Neither GoD nor OoW were completed in-era (and I imagine some earlier expansions that aren't on EGL were too). With the exception of DoN, it wasn't really until SoD that a high number of guilds completed content in-era. It's worth noting, though, that a lot of older expansions weren't out nearly as long as modern expansions. In any event, I did make it into a chart because I was curious:

  4. Rashod Lorekeeper

    This certainly isn't my experience in a family/low tier raiding guild. People missing emotes has little to do with parsers as 90% of the raid force doesn't use a parser or seem to care how they parse. What I would give to have people missing emotes only because they were paying to much attention to trying to top the parse.

    For what its worth, CToV and PoH and PoF were certainly some of the best things for our guild as far as raiding goes.
  5. Spellfire Augur

    I don't agree with this. People in family guilds and low end guilds won't have parse overlays, they probably won't have GINA either.

    Hell, even in high end guilds, some folks consider parse a dirty word :(.
    Zunnoab, Yinla, kizant and 1 other person like this.
  6. Laronk Augur

    I also don't think emotes are the problem, you can have someone call out emotes in Discord (or vent/teamspeak/mumble) and you can talk to the people missing emotes and solve the issue.

    Players not playing their classes to the fullest ability of that class is often a big part of the problem and then sometimes there's organizational issues such as people not being on-time people not glyphing
  7. strongbus Augur

    [quote="Laronk, post: 3819704, member: 653"Players not playing their classes to the fullest ability of that class is often a big part of the problem[/quote]

    as someone in a family guild that raid. This right here is one of the biggest issues i see. in a family guilds raid you might have 50% of the players playing their class to the fullest. but that 50% can't carry the other 50% who are playing their class at below the fullest

    Cause lets admit it. The dervs are making raids now that are built around people playing at the fullest and using glyphs and such.
  8. Laronk Augur

    as someone in a family guild that raid. This right here is one of the biggest issues i see. in a family guilds raid you might have 50% of the players playing their class to the fullest. but that 50% can't carry the other 50% who are playing their class at below the fullest

    Cause lets admit it. The dervs are making raids now that are built around people playing at the fullest and using glyphs and such.[/quote]

    It's really hard though because what are you going to do, kick the berzerker that does half the other berzerker? Well that wouldn't be very family. The game isn't hard in terms of being hard but instead some of the classes do not have good resources and more casual players want to be able to just go play without having to scour the internet for good resources.

    Also since eq doesn't have a good addon system like wow less people use parsers in eq. If you're not parsing its hard to tell how much dps you're doing relative to other people. There's also people who think they can eyeball dps 0.o I don't have words when I try to explain to them there's no reasonable way they're able to just watch their combat spam at 110 and go "yea I'm doing like 300k dps right now"
  9. Corwyhn Lionheart Augur

    I am not anything more then an occasional open raider and haven't run my guild doing current raids in at least 18 years. So take what I say with a bag of salt :).

    The raiding game is truly the competitive part of Everquest and so it has to be very challenging. There needs to be the ability to let the top guilds showcase their raiding skills from organization to team work to their training programs for new members. Ultimately if lower tier raid guilds don't have these same skills they simply won't do as well and that is to be expected.

    The limited raid content also makes it harder to cater to every raider when raiding is intended to be the most competitive part of the game. We can all remember the days of blocking progress and late night raids to get a jump on others. Things have dialed down some but I think its important not to dilute this part of the game even if it isn't a part I play (and fair criticism to say don't talk about it then if you don't play it).

    If the numbers are correct in the charts posted it would seem the problem may get worse over time. I am guessing that guilds having problems completing all the content aren't doing we well farming the stuff they can complete. If guilds aren't geared up enough for the next expansion they fall further behind I am guessing.

    I just think there has to be another way to accommodate the lower tier raiding guilds.

    I would love to hear the guild leaders of the top raiding guilds offer some suggestions on how to have a healthier lower tier raid guild population.

    Would increasing raid drops in the last half of an expansion help the lower tier raid guilds be ready for the upcoming expansion? I have no idea just asking.

    Would it be possible to give special achievements based upon when you finish raid content. Something for the first month up to the sixth month say then after that no special achievements but the raids all become easier overall to complete. Maybe a special piece of gear is given to those that finish things early.

    Any way I am just spitballing here and seeing if there are some ideas that could be worked on to include more of the raid community in the raid content.

    If they are bad ideas my apologies I am not into the raid game enough to know the answers.

    Just take this as a friendly suggestion from someone who "in this case" is out of his depth. :)
  10. p2aa Augur

    Per elitegamerlounge this expansion I would say this :
    Guilds 1-10 are high end tier raiding guilds.
    Guilds 11-20 are mid tier raiding guilds.
    Guilds 21-30 are low tier raiding guilds.
    Guilds 31 + are casual raiding guilds.
  11. p2aa Augur

    As to the reason why low tier raiding guilds or even casual raiding guilds don't progress enough well, it's mainly due to how the class is played first, then lack of numbers. As been said, if number problem, put your ego aside and merge these guilds. Been said multiple times on the multiple threads that complained that their guild was not progressing enough well.
  12. p2aa Augur

    If you are in a low tier raiding guild, I think you are generous on the % that plays their class at their fullest, at best it's 25 %.
  13. yepmetoo Augur

    I don't believe in catch up raids. A catch up raid implies one of two things:

    1) the raid is too easy for the loot, so is a "gimme" and a waste of raid development time

    2) the prior expansion raids are too hard at some point so that progression is blocked making beating newer, and that should be harder, raids viable for gearing up to go back and beat what is blocking you

    ESPECIALLY, there should never be "catch up" raids in level increase expansions. The new levels are your catch up.

    I do, however, think that raid difficulty should scale upwards to the final raid, and not be a random mish mash so that an early raid can be overly difficult.

    Nothing wrong with straight forward early raids, whose difficulty is more along the lines of "you must be this high to pass" versus, how well are you at cat herding or navigating some specific class mix.

    I'm all for 2-3 tier 1 tank and spank events, so long as they don't give the same gear as the final tier/raid like they have been doing lately.
  14. Windance Augur

    Expected response from the elite raiders, "stop whining about it ... get gooder" by kicking the old baggage out and/or jump ship and join the winning team, but if you go back to the original post ...

    We really don't want want to see yet another raiding guild fail because they haven't been able to win ANY current raid targets. That's one of the reasons people stop paying to play and you can really see it demonstrated by the graphs above.

    Is it really so much to ask that the devs:

    * Make the first raids emotes easier to follow. Example: Big red ring that follows me - good. Emote that tells only the player to run and wipes the raid if they don't jump with in 6s - bad.

    * Having the first 1 or 2 raids less resource intensive so the 30-40 'harder core' folks can carry the 15 soft core players? Yes the 1% are going to steam roll it, but its only T1 and you are going to blow through it anyway and concentrate on the completing everything so why do you care? A good example of an easier T1 raid is Gorwyn
    Yinla likes this.
  15. BadPallyGuildLeader Augur

    All the guilds you mention have very "nichey" raid times. Two that are basically the same person plus a few extras on either side raid from some crazy 11pm to 2am slot. Doesn't count in my opinion. There is a real gap on FV though...that we can agree on.
  16. Laronk Augur

    Well to a certain extent some players really do need to "get gooder" if they want their raids to be successful. If you run parses and some dps of the same class are consistently half the dps of others then the guys that are doing half need to fix their crap.
  17. Laronk Augur

    While 11pm eastern to 2am eastern might seem late, it's really only 8pm pacific to 11pm pacific which is a nice time slot for us who live on the other end of the country. If you don't like that time slot there's still Vahallah and SOA and I think KOI

    The biggest problem with pickup raids is they have even worse of an issue than low tier casual raid guilds. You don't get the benefit of a banner which makes it much easier to get between raids (specially pofire)

    It's even harder to talk to people about them sucking.
    It takes more resources to get them in top group gear and do you inspect everyone new who tries to raid? It slows things down if they die from one AE on raids.
    Loot takes even longer.
    It's harder to count on the same players showing up every raid night.
    Belexes likes this.
  18. Belexes Augur

    Not a leader of a raiding guild, but it is pretty much common sense.

    You need to pick a time when all can raid. You need enough people in your guild that actually want to raid. Those people will need to be more invested in getting their AAs, clickies etc. This takes time.

    Then you need to teach them how to play their characters to at least 95% of their potential, then you need to teach them how to raid. That means how to set up and their UI etc.

    Have a seminar on how to play a class and record it. Have a seminar on how to set up your UI. How to use GINA etc. It could be put on YouTube.

    Time has to be invested in your raiding team and they in turn need to invest more time into their character.

    Once you have enough people listed above in your guild to do a raid, then your raiding will get better and their success will breed more success. Then more people in your guild might be interested in raiding when they hear and see this. Then you are on your way.

    You just can't get 54 people all together and raid. Open raids tell you that. The only way that works is if most of them are experienced raiders and high performers. Lower raiding guilds have low performers. Too many of those and you fail.

    To make a low performer a high performer, you need to spend time teaching and they need to have the desire to be more serious about playing.

    There is no such thing in EQ as casual raiding. If your guild members don't do what it takes, you don't get any better and lose members. Those who spend the time and want to learn to be better and then do so get tired of wasting time wiping in a raid guild if the larger majority of your raid force are casual players who don't utilize the potential of their character and won't spend the time to develop it.
    Corwyhn Lionheart likes this.
  19. Allayna Augur

    The issue we’ve come across in the raid game, both in MS and while hosting open raids is a knowledge deficit. As an expert in a class retires a lot of knowledge is lost. You can post write ups and line ups and mechanics...sometimes that’s not enough to get a player where they need to be in todays raid environment.

    I am all for : individually punishing emotes / achievements.

    I’m against : X person stands in stupid huge aura and 53 others failed an achievement and take a hit, either massive DD, DoT, or drain...

    If we continue to make emotes punish the raid...the entire raid should have access to see who failed it. No more emotes where only the individual knows they failed.

    There are definitely people on these boards who have made themselves available to offer assistance in learning the appropriate burn combinations, about adps, event mechanics etc...reach out to those people while they still play.
    Zunnoab, Corwyhn Lionheart and Yinla like this.
  20. Bigstomp Augur

    I totally agree on this. I want to know who failed. Maybe they have a good excuse, .... happens. But guessing sucks and often leads to guessing wrong.

    In GMM we know who got run over by the roboboar. In UF during the grekin raid we knew (after a patch to add it) who hit it with fire.
    All failures should include a message about who failed.
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