Warriors got the short end of the stick on this alliance stuff. We had no alliance stuff, but one more harmonious than knight to prolly compensate for it. As all harmonious have been massively nerfed, we have clearly been the loosers in this situation. On another note, I don't think DBG will make instant cast stuns.
It’s just more so a case of being horribly tuned. No Paladin cares that Shadowknight alliance does more damage. When your talking it’s more than 2x as powerful and Paladins might as well be in same boat as Warriors(not even have an alliance), that’s a different story. Shadowknight alliance is “slightly” more powerful than Bard alliance. Even if Paladin alliance was on par with Bard alliance it would be worthwhile to mem. Shadowknight’s don’t even need to go out of their way to trigger fulminate, just cast what they should be casting lol
just becoz something dosent meet what you seem is fair dosent make it worthless. i mean come on heres Seldom your saying that becoz it dosent do almost as much as the SK version, means its worthless and might as well not be an ability. if other classes said the same thing everytime one of their ability wasent just as good or close to it as anyone elses class, then we might as well all just do the same dmg have the same healing and defensive options becoz if we dont any ability thats not close to or almost the same value is useless and not worthy to be in the game. that is just a flawed statement that lacks just the overall veiw to take your entire class in to consideration. your a healing tank hybrid that means your dps options are gonna be worse then your healing options by a significant number. thats the price you pay for beeing part healer
You are saying many things I did not state nor imply. I’ve used my Shadowknight’s alliance ability countless times in raid game and many times in group game. I’ve only ever used Paladin alliance on 1 single raid event. That’s extremely bad tuning and has nothing to do with what I think is fair or isn’t lol. In it’s current state, it might as well not have even been added to game. That’s not some over exaggeration when you understand numbers and look at what you’re gaining versus losing. It’s not just a case of the Shadowknight equivalent being more damage. It’s a case of an SK being able to trigger it with far less effort, doing nothing out of the ordinary. In reality, the class with the lower population(Paladin) should be able to trigger their fulmination with less difficulty, not far more. That’s not to say I also don’t have a problem with the damage as well when we’re beat in enough dps related categories without factoring in alliances, but that’s better suited for another thread probably
It's highly unlikely Alliances will get further development attention before some hypothetical lv106+ versions are made, but I'm on Seldom's side in this. The hit counter on Holy Alliance should be 4, not 6. It's currently based (according to my understanding) on getting max casts of top two Censure line HoTT-nukes, but the played reality of EQ is that getting 6 in 18s is very difficult. Hit counter of 4 would support deploying Holy Alliance with a pair of paladins (who would still have to be paying attention and bend their play a little to work it in). At which point Paladins would still I think have a legit gripe about the stun component, which (possibly along with Dichotomic Force) I think should be able to hit bosses, given that they're "missing" 1M damage to have the stun. Alliances are cool, I really like the coop mechanic. They should also be good.
They basically put a stun on every ability we get and the go “oh man it has stun lets reduce its effectiveness so it isn’t overpowered.” And then basically most of eq is stun immune and we are left with mediocre abilities and spells. The spreadsheet boosts need to go as well and a real look into the effectiveness of each ability needs to be done. But that is just a pipe dream we are lucky to get a full spell set at expansion launch.
Had a great idea thought I would share. Yaulp is supposed to increase attack speed, add in accuracy. Lets upgrade this ability to be like bard's overhaste obviously self only. (20-30 percent, would have to be tested) We still won't come near our brother Shadowknights dps, but it would be a nice bump to an ability we already have. Reduce cast time on all spells by half, or aa's that do this.
Maybe just make the Yaulp AA into an innate benefit so we can stop mashing it. Then upgrade as needed with future AA ranks to keep it relevant.
This has pretty much been their SOP for Unicorn rider development forever, hasn’t it? If something has a stun component, compared to its non stun counterpart, it costs more, takes longer to do, does less, and takes longer to do again. Because stun! (while ignoring the many limitations and very situational use of most stuns). It’d be nice to see stuns have a bit more of a place (and more CC in general). Seems especially crappy when it’s attached to a mostly raid oriented ability like Alliance or a special expansion spell like dicho. Some classes got similar treatment with dicho (ie, mage) but at this point as Brogh said earlier it’s probably better to not be married to a 1 expansion ability that may or may not get continued down the road. I liked the idea someone tossed out awhile back about auras, a la the Diablo 2 Paladin, as something to give besides the same stale heal/stun/buff/defense stuff.
What spells are you dropping to make room for this? In a perfect world of holy fulminations (batman!) it adds 72K DPS total done by all paladins present. This is a very underwhelming number to allow it to disturb and detract from paladin raid roles of add tanking, group healing, spot healing, splash, oh and dps. Brogh suggests that Holly Alliance is designed around casting Admonish and Censure. These are relatively slow (1s base, 5s recast), low hate spells, that mainly get used on main tank boss targets. If I have a tank assignment myself, I replace it with a high hate spell so it's not even in my spell set often as not. The likely spells available to trigger alliance would be: Crush of Povar (in EoK), Brilliant line, Consecration line. Only in RoS can we include Crush of TD (over 1k nuke) to that list. I'm excluding Disruptive Persecution because it's over the max level (110) by virtue of being an AA (level 254). The recast delays and cool downs on all these spells doesn't help to fulminate the target, let alone requiring 6 spells (vs 4 for SK) to land. So who wants to give up (bend) two spell slots for Holy Alliance and Censure to maybe increase raid DPS by at most 72K DPS? When raid DPS is measured in the 3 to 6 million DPS range if you're being successful in RoS? That is literally less then 2% of the raid. Casting more heals to keep real dps alive easily outperforms that number because healing is ADPS. That being said, in RoS raids, I do find more opportunities for alliance then in EoK oddly enough. However after much experiementing, I believe that Holy Alliance is simply a futile gesture.
The thing with alliance is this despite what people are saying. The best spell line up for aggro and Dps has been and will continue to be Brilliant Undead/live nuke Undead/live nuke Undead/live nuke Dos crush has too long a recast despite the aggro and dos being better the the out of date nuke You could make a case for the long recast crush but in volume with potion procs the 18s recast won last time I parsed it That has a better shot at fulminating alliance with the 24 sec crush you have to weave admonish line with the 1 sec cast time and if under valorous that presents its own problem With that being said the stun on alliance needs dropped and either tott a heal for the 1/2 dmg of the corresponding sk equivalent or double the culmination amt.
Shiftie are you concerned much about: Relying on e.g. FoD AA for initial hate override vs having a crush/stun in your spell set? Remembrance recourse taking up a buff slot on undead raid targets (boss primarily)?
I don’t worry too much about the overrides I cast what is up when it’s up. You can load a crush for that purpose if you need the aggro especially now with the extra spell slot. The trigger from that line of spells bounces when funeral dirge is on so in a practical raid it should never eat a spot when dirge is available and if dirge isn’t available then it would help keep in mind though it has a very low hit limit and evaporates quickly in raid scenarios
It's a neat plan that I don't think I've read before on this forum. I'd be game, but I probably wouldn't go to the third one (level 96 Laudation) just because it's below the effects of Focus AA? That's a big step down in damage, compounded with the lower hit amount.
this is my basic raid spell set. things get swapped according to specific roles but this is always where i start. 1) preservation of rodcet 2) defiant stance 3) alliance 4) brilliant 5) censure 6) admonish 7) protective devotion (remembrance) 8) wave of expiation 9) splash 10) crush 11) crush 12) valiant 13) refute 4,5,6,7 are on a bind this makes it easy for ToT heals and/or alliance fulmination. 10,11,12,13 are also on a bind for aggro and a couple more hits to help trigger alliance. i still have group heals and splashes covered. i agree that there are lots of other spells to put up in place of alliance but in most cases none have as big an impact. the last raid i attended had 4 paladins. in every situation where we were able to concentrate on a single target we were able to fulminate 4 alliances in close to 30 seconds, that is a big upside to any raid force. the stun proc is silly and if it was changed to an ae heal it would be more in character but until then it is still a usable tool.
Pretty similar spell set Redemption. I'll roughly trade you: 1. Burst for Admonish; for out-of-group (ETW) spot healing (that you forego) 2. Harmonious for Crush of E'Ci; to augment priest alliance with group heals 3. Refute for Expiation; for emergency self healing Your 4 paladins achieved 172k DPS towards the raid in those 30 seconds. Roughly a 3-4% boost.
