NTTB potential changes?

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Daegun, Jan 15, 2014.

  1. arsenil Lorekeeper

    seeing that thats all he has to say about it makes it look that way dont it .. just canceled all 4 of my accounts
  2. Darsh Journeyman

    Go read the PvP section about NTTB looks like that's why it got nerfed.
  3. Repthor Augur

    pvp wasent reason to the nerf . theres far more broken things in pvp the NTTB was.
  4. Mozzarella Elder

    That's the spirit SOE, ignore it and it will go away; it has worked for so many years after all! What's a few dozens of angry players anyway? That's a few dozens, along with friends, who will stay as far away as humanly possible from EQNext and will not renew subscribtions, that's what.

    Devs have the right to disagree with us, but as paying customers I think we deserve at least one of them to take ONE MINUTE and post in here. Ridiculous.
    Darsh likes this.
  5. 1andOnly Journeyman

    So I take it that other options won't even be considered, such as
    • Increasing the base duration
    • Lower the reuse timer
    • Or even make the disc cost a big load of endurance (10k-20k) so if constantly used, medding will be required.
    since it was not supposed to be extendable via aa's?
  6. Ranpha Augur

    Ignore it, and more than these messages will go away. It's the double standard that is especially annoying. Warriors have like 5 (useful) clickies that get benefit of the extension AA, but all hell breaks loose if that extension is actually applied to something useful.

    Yet, other classes get their disciplines extended by SPELL CASTING extension, and that's been untouched for years. Just what is up with that. Double standard. The same crap applies to the entire healing system. If at any time a Warrior procs a heal from a weapon, buff or whatever, then NO.. it shall not be focused/extended/critted period. Cast the same buff on a class with a blue mana bar, and yes, it can double crit for umpteen thousand hitpoints healed.

    Fix this stupid system or throw classes penalized for these technical limitations a bone until such time that you do.
    beryon and Mozzarella like this.
  7. Zalamyr Augur

    Well, to say the "confusion" comes solely from his wording in the description isn't accurate either. Whether or not it was intended to be extended was a question raised by multiple people in the beta discussion thread. Claiming months later that it's a bug that somehow slipped by for months is baffling when it was brought up many times during beta.
    beryon likes this.
  8. BoomWalker Augur

    Not a tank...but what would the response be from all you warriors if NTTB was reverted to EXACTLY how it was pre-nerf EXCEPT the timer was put at 3 mins and refresh at 5 mins?

    Would it be useful? It would solve all the current stacking issues?

    Wouldn't a 3 minute timer with a 5 minute reuse timer mean a tank rotation could be a few warriors with it running for one...and the next steps in...repeat?

    Could possibly argue 2 warriors tank a raid since one would have NTTB refreshed before the current tank has NTTB fade?

    With the stacking issues (as I understand them) it seems NTTB is impeding certain healing features to help tanks survive tanking a raid if it was reverted but a shorter timer would still seem to be a viable disc...right?

    Doesn't a 5 minute timer and 5 minute reuse timer mean one warrior can tank a raid boss the entire event?
  9. Marshall Maathers Augur

    NTTB was not, in and of itself, enough to tank raid bosses that weren't already trivial.

    You needed to pair it with defensive disc and a couple AAs.

    The stacking issues would solve the majority of raid related issues, but the duration issue is a group warrior's biggest concern.

    In the end, if you only do one or the other, you are catering to either the raid warriors or the group warriors, to make it simple.
    Koryu and Mozzarella like this.
  10. Repthor Augur

    this i not a raid warrior tool this is a group warrior tool . it could be 30 minute duration and coldown and u still whouldent tank bosses with it. without the big cooldowns such as defensive for instance.

    this tool was/is to narrow the healing gap of the paladins and sks. It did just that (in a more warriory way aka not healing) not all the way but it made warriors more viable in the group game and not this weight you lug around that cant stand on his/her own 2 feet. we are tired of beeing a burden to our groups

    FIX US
    beryon and Mozzarella like this.
  11. Ranpha Augur

    It was also important to raid warriors, but not so much in the main tanking role (although it helped).

    It made it much more viable to help out on adds when low on knights, and it made you less reliant on outside heals when "waiting your turn", requiring less baby sitting and allowing you to still partake in the event without having to worry about distracting healers from the current MT.
  12. Repthor Augur

    ur right it gave us more flexbility(witch was great) but we can still do what we have allways done in the raid game. cuz warriors has defensive thats the main ability we bring to the table. sure we have more tools, but in essence if a warrior lives thru defensive anything after that is considdered gravy and u know that as well as i do as we both are in top tier raiding guilds.

    us raiders will continue to live on with this change cuz it effects us less alot less. i can take my raid gear and go destroy group content just fine. quite frankly this impacts me very little, cuz i log in to raid and then log out. and if i do decide to go get some exp ill bring a group of raid geared ppl and we will half our way easy mode thru group content beeing half drunk or what not. we arent the once who needs this change.

    Group warriors needs it and they need it badly . warrior class scales up very good . but we dont scale down well at all . NTTB helped alot here .

    theres been sevral suggestions in this thread and on the beta forum and other threads in the tank section how to change and fix it stacking with discs like defensive cuz it does and it shouldent but a 3.4k rune on a 100k hitter means very little lucky us it hasent had a great impact or the group warriors whould have had it removed all together. non of this is news we been feedbacking this sence first Call of the forseken beta but no one wants to listen or talk or even respond to us. and then 6 mounths later we get this ooh man it got extended by aa that aperently u guys dident know about even tho me plus 10 other ppl ATLEAST reported IN BETA B4 COTF went live. then on top of that we get educated about diffrent forms of sustainble means. even tho WE ASKED if ti was ment to be up all the time and we got nothing in response so we had to take it for face value. cuz no concreate information was given.

    all content in cotf was tested with NTTB beeing on 100% of the time so now everythign is just wrong cuz off bad comunication

    but hey im a raid warrior . i can still do my thing. all is well nothign to see here *faceplam*
    Filter and beryon like this.
  13. BoomWalker Augur the stacking issues seem a problem from what I have I can see wanting it changed/fixed/reverted/something....

    The duration it is a problem that a group warrior has this buff for 3 mins out of 5 mins instead of 5 mins out of 5 mins? How is this a big problem? 2 mins of pulls? 2 mins of a boss fight?

    Group warrior 2 mins less on a boss fight...ok...that can be something that might be a concern...but don't warriors have other discs that can be used for a boss fight to balance out the time?

    But 2 mins without it for pulls...that seems silly. Again, not a tank so any help on showing why that 2 minutes is such a big deal would be helpful.

    Raiding warriors it seems are not as concerned with the duration...since they swap out when other discs fade (NTTB is a disc right? Or just an AA of some type?).

    Thanks for the responses and helping to clarify up the concerns...for us non-tanks.
  14. Marshall Maathers Augur

    Why should we have to spend 2 mins way worse than knights, and 3 mins comparable to them?

    Not to mention the second NTTB drops, the damage spikes and the healer needs to react much quicker or splat.
    beryon likes this.
  15. Koryu Professional Roadkill

    No Time to Bleed is a combat ability. It isn't a discipline, because you can use other disciplines at the same time, the kind that place you in a stance in the combat ability window itself. It costs endurance up front to activate it, which places a buff in the short term buff window. It functions like a rune that doesn't fade, and will absorb a flat amount of damage (about 3300 points) from any source, whether melee, ranged, or spell. So, you must break the 3300 point threshold to deal damage to the warrior while this buff is up. The buff has a limited hit-count of 600, so that warriors cannot use it to do swarm killing for XP. You can lose the buff by exceeding the number of hits, or the buff times out at the now nerfed duration of 3 minutes.

    Piestro stated that stacking issues were going to be looked into, so I don't think that will remain a problem. NTtB's damage absorption currently overrides other methods of mitigation, even if they would have prevented more damage. There are some examples in this thread already.

    There are a couple of problems with the change to the duration, but the biggest and worst of these problems is that the tankiness of the warrior is less reliable. When the buff fades, it is possible for the warrior to take an additional 13.2K damage (3300 x4) in an unlucky melee round where all blows land, not including mob special abilities like Flurry or Rampage. That doesn't sound like a big deal at first glance, but consider that 13.2K is about 10% of a group-geared warriors HPs if he is Lobby buffed out (Tenacity, Unity, Brell's) and already wearing CotF gear in every slot. 10% of his max HPs extra damage in a single melee round from a single mob. Your healer won't know when your buff is going to drop, when you will suddenly be taking much more damage, unless you tell them every time (and that'll get annoying for both parties). A real healer, and the group as a whole, shouldn't want a tank whose ability to take damage fluctuates wildly.

    Warriors have already been given other abilities to improve tanking that can be sustained indefinitely (read: the buff lasts as long or longer than the cooldown timer to reactivate it), see Blade Guardian and Brace for Impact. They work differently and in a less reliable fashion than how NTtB did its job (one activates a parry mod only after you drop to low health, the other has a random chance on being hit to trigger a 2 tick mitigation buff). NTtB was initially introduced as a sustainable ability. It was Beta tested through Call of the Forsaken and Hate Rising as a sustainable ability. Group content was tuned with NTtB as a sustainable ability. Warriors reported the fact that it was sustainable, and it was not changed for months. Warriors liked this new ability, felt capable with this new ability. And then our reliability was taken away.

    We didn't need NTtB to get turned into another short term situational defensive ability. I already have a hot bar full of those. What we needed was something that made choosing a Warrior over a Knight worthwhile, or at least less painful. NTtB smoothed out incoming damage and reduced our reliance on needing healed all the time for every little thing touching us, to make up for the fact that Knights can heal themselves. Then it was taken away. That's why we're up to 16 pages of complaints (which are actually about 10 pages of "Why did you ruin a good thing?," 1 page of poor damage control by a Sony rep, and 5 pages of a particular warrior shouting the same old things that nobody else seems to agree with).
    beryon and Ranpha like this.
  16. Dre. Augur

    Situation from last night:
    Puller dies, healer merc dies
    2 mobs got trained on group unexpectedly
    I agro mobs, hit flash, NTTB and call for heals
    90-something shaman in group keeps me alive no problems
    Wiz merc burned the mobs down
    NTTB fades
    Move ahead to recover puller's body
    One see-invis trash mob agros me
    Shaman unable to keep me alive
  17. Brosa Augur

    For me the biggest disappointment is that its not sustainable. I'm a group tank so I don't think about the raid game. Historically my input is only 1/16th that of a raid warrior. /shrug
  18. Daegun Augur

    While under NTTB prior to nerf (up all the time) my warrior in comparable gear needed less total healing than my sk. My sk, however, covered the majority of his own healing - leaving the healer putting 3-5x more healing into the warrior compared to the knight.

    That was before the nerf.

    Now NTTB and vie do not stack.
    Now NTTB is up 60% of the time.

    After the nerf?

    While NTTB is up the warrior needs 4-5x more external healing. When NTTB is down, the warrior needs that same healing plus 3000 per hit for 2 minutes.

    To the Developers:

    Where is the balance?
    Why are you ignoring us?
    What is your vision for this class?
    What in gods green earth were you thinking taking away the one good thing this class had?

    You've screwed the pooch. Knights have received barely worse versions of our discs but more of them. Innate mitigation is laughably close at this point. The sheer nature of spells, focus, crits, etc is that they scale upward non-linearly compared to classes without them. Yep, a knight can play the part of tank and healer, all while tanking about as damn well as warriors to begin with.

    That is the state of tank balance right now. It wasn't pretty with the prenerf NTTB, but warriors were happy enough to have anything - we just weren't noticing.

    So ... creative ideas for a fix other than having us re-roll knights or make warriors carbon copies of knights?
    Filter and beryon like this.
  19. juddor Elder

    i get SO angry that we cant get a decent response on any of this... the lame "sustainable" argument was just that.. lame..

    I hate that we would have to vote with our accounts, but if it comes to that ill cancel accounts (i have 4 gold accounts)...

    I also have a zerker i raid with... and mirror these feelings with him...

    I just don't get it, they screwed the pooch with zerkers when they did the augmented frenzy nurf as well by over nurfing them.

    Simple fact is:

    - 1 ADPS abilities add to much to melee burns compared to casters.. need re balance
    - 2 Spells add to much to knights healing and survivability
    - 3 sustained DPS for warriors and zerks are a joke... i think my group geared bard does more then them sustained.

    There are balancing issues, then there is the steaming pile of ignored and mistreated classes that these classes have gotten.

    There are easy fixes to these.. what i would do

    - warriors need weapons with ratios 25% better then knights (or equivalent with SS) assuming 80/100/120 ish distributions... hell i don't care if you want us to use a shield all the time..
    - cut all ADPS abilities in half, adjust personal burns to compensate.. or put caps on them so mudflation takes over. (such as shaman epic, paragon)
    - give warriors back NTTB and upgrades to it every 5 levels at a sustainable (duration) level
    - warrior self only runes, equivalent to knight heals (taking into account there crits, etc) usable every so often.
    - look at sustained numbers and adjust them, lazy way, give zerkers self HHE like monks and rogues have

    - drop some friggin giant axes for zerkers to wield =p

    Mozzarella likes this.
  20. Mozzarella Elder

    Down from 3 to 1 gold account, which very likely will not get renewed once it runs out of days.
    I wonder if the devs are lazy or contemptuous... Anyway, plenty of other MMOs out there that don't have classes that remain broken for a decade and huge forum threads that are ignored for weeks, or months at a time.
    Hiby likes this.

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