Non-Raiding Necromancers

Why was blood magic fixed recently if necromancer's already had "unlimited" mana?

It was broke for a long time. Then a dev made it a point to fix it. He even reached out to the necromancer community on how they wanted it fixed.

He always said since the last change to Death Bloom, that he would have to revisit it. Why did it take all these years to finally do it? Why now, does he feel that DB gives the raiding necromancer unlimited mana?

Artemis aka Morgue,

For the most part, I don't care how necro regen stacks up to other classes. What I am curious about is your claims that a group geared, group/solo necro won't be able to go more than 10 min without going oom.

If your magelo is to be believed, you've completely ignored anythingto do with mana besides the death bloom aa. You're missing:
0/3 blood magic
0/6 hastened blood magic
0/38 expansive mind
1/5 innate enlightenment
0/38 mental clarity
0/30 mastery of the past (fizzles cost mana)
0/20 planar power
0/35 planar intelligence
0/25 mental stamina
0/15 innate intelligence

Now, I realize that lot of that is mana cap and not necessarily regen, but every little bit helps. What you would get is 38 mana/tick from mental clarity, 34/38 mana/tick from expansive mind(you don't have the gear to max it out), and a ton of mana regen from blood magic. Those innates alone would cancel out the death bloom nerf for you.

You also aren't using the 15% specialize alteration aug, which gives ~2% mana preservation.

Do you use affliction efficiency tribute?

It seems like there's a lot you could be doing to have less to zero mana issues.

Really you're counting plus mana instead of just plus mana regen is pointless for this debate. Clarity line adds around 2k mana necro epic costs necro 3k mana. Plus mana from AA lines is shared by all casters. I really see no reason to bring those up.

Mana regen AA are valid though because when people start arguing in % terms those do infact change the numbers.

I think in Atvar's instance it would be applicable because he's referring to the point someone said that "group geared necro would go OOM in 10 min or less". A bigger mana pool certainly would help extend that.

I agree it's irrelevant for the OP's discussion, but it would be applicable for Atvar's point.

You know what, if it was insta-cast rather than 4.3 seconds (an eternity), if it was reliable and landed on all mobs, if it had a reliable duration, if it wasn't blocked by a whole host of other mana regen enhancing spells from other classes, if it didn't often get blocked due to people being at max buffs (seriously, the last two are major downsides)....it would get used more often.

I've just had a play on beta (molo) with it though - I won't lie, in my normal group I can throw it in and it will make the Death Bloom nerf less painful; HOWEVER that is still going to come at the cost of DPS since with the 60 second timer it means throwing it rather than a dot/dd. As you will notice I'm NOT currently using it within my normal group as no-one else has had mana issues so this is still an indirect reduction to the group necro's DPS contribution.

Is the sky done falling yet?
Maybe if i cherry pick some numbers that leave most stuff out, i can be like most everyone else here

I added the mana cap aa's for completeness more than anything. In reality, it takes a much bigger mana pool to make up for a little extra preservation. The big issue is all the mana pres Morgue is currently missing.

Morgue isn't the only one saying this is an issue. I think I'm missing 30 mana regen or so and 2% from an aug so can do better, but it is a long way from mitigating the change.

Maybe so, I'm still surprised no one has mentioned knowledge of the past item clicks yet.

Since you were the only other person to even post about an actual parse, what did you cast during those 15 min before you were oom, and that was with a bard box playing mana regen?

Look, I know I need more AA's, who doesn't? 4100 AA's, and I'm not even done with just basic AA's yet, it's a tall mountain. Hell, I have my magelo in plain sight. I'm not trying to hide anything. I'm glad you took the time to critique my current setup. You can actually use the mana regen that I am lacking to extrapolate how much longer I could last / how much more mana I could generate.

Which is good to know, and sadly which people aren't willing to do on average. 9 times out of 10, you will see people run into your thread, say such an such as gospel, with no numbers or evidence to back that up. Sadly allot of that has happened in this thread. We have had people come in, with absolutely no clue. Try to bully, harass, with inane comments, with no backup, other than say you been OP for too long, you got infinite mana, you can leap tall buildings with a single bound, you were born on crypton, ect... What kind of discussion can be had with someone, after they just did that?

When you come back with numbers, and evidence, they either ignore what you said, and keep rambling on. Or just plain out say, it doesn't matter if your numbers are correct, I'm gonna keep thinking your still OP, despite some classes producing double, or more mana than you per hour.

Yes in my case I am oom in / around the 10 min mark (I cast 5-6 spell per mob). I speak for no one else. In fact, I asked other necromancers to go out in the field, test this change for themselves, and post their experiences here. You know what? Sadly only 1 other necro has posted his findings, unless I missed anyone, if so apologize.

This is the only one so far that I have noticed. Total, only 9 necromancers have posted on this thread. Not the turn out I expected to say the least. They probably just gave up, and don't really care anymore. Can I blame them? What happened in the beta forums with the Death Bloom nerf was a horrid experiance. One that I hope others classes never have to go through. The lack of discussion with the Devs this expansion CotF has been atrocious.

Never has there been a beta where literally it has been like a graveyard, with respect to the Dev team. We asked, we waited, made out cases a thousand times it felt, in the end, it seems no one was listening.

Yep, my magelo is current. After every play session, I make sure to update my AA's. Haven't had the heart to touch him the last few days you will notice, by the last time he was updated on magelo. Ya, what to say. Your completely right, there are indeed some AA's I can still purchase that will help with mana regain. Again, I gotta say, there is so much to buy, it actually kind of sucks. 4100 and I'm not close to being what others would consider functional... Silly no?

But I digress, LDoN raid aug? Not yet, on my todo list, will go into my epic slot 8. Well, until our epic gets nerfed as well that is. Yep, I run AF - Xl, AH - Xl, and second chance 3 for tribute. I am still trying to figure out why all the hate for necros. When I made the switch from my magician. Yes I have a 95 Mag, with just over 4600 AA's. Over to my now necro main. I felt no animosity, jealousy for what they could do, that I couldn't.

Hell, I got a 88 Bst 3200ish AA's, and a 86 Rng 1700 AA's, as well even playing on those I wasn't worries how much mana another class had. What they could do that I couldn't. When I rolled up my toons, I knew what I was getting into. I knew the roles SOE had designed into each class. The amount of competition, jealousy, anger, I see with other classes attacking each other to me is lunacy.

When I read the forums at times, I chuckle, cause I can't believe what I'm reading half the time. All the class warfare, all the raid parse cries, and call for nerf class x, they shouldn't do such an such... It all just amazes me. It's like going into your class you knew what you would, or wouldn't be able to do right? Ignoring the recent addition of Decapitate, and Beam kiting... pretty much all the classes were set in stone.

Everyone knew what they could do, in relation to others, how quickly, or efficiently they could farm/grind xp. What is shocking me is how much attention "Death Bloom" nerf is garnering. Now this nerf was only supposed to target raiders. But I see classes coming into this thread, practically frothing at the mouth wanting to see your avg grouper, soloer punished? For what exactly? What did they do to you?

Every class has their gimics..
Mage / Necro / Dru / Brd / Ench / Shm / Bst who can kill current expansion trash mobs solo, or molo.
Ranger / Berserker / Rogue who can with or without a merc mass kill light blues quickly.
SK / Pal who can swarm kill mass amount of light blue mobs.
Clr sketchy, but heard they can do some kind swarming, but why bother, grouping is more fun.
Mage / Bst / Necro who can kill current expansion named molo, or in some cases solo.

Mnk / War / Wiz don't know where you guys fit in, what your gimmic is.

The thing is, everyone can do something (still dunno about you Mnk, War, Wiz tho). So ya, I'm at a loss why people are so upset, and angry. I wouldn't wish this experience on another class. It really is eye opening, the real kind of community we have here. Smiling faces, with daggers in their eyes is more like it lol...

I'm just waiting for the feeding frenzy when the next batch of nerfs come through... You know, the one that addresses "how much mana is flying around already". <---- Dev comment btw, given when Druids asked for their Quiet miracle version. Thanks again for the responses everyone. It really has put things into perspective for me, and stripped away some of my naivety.

Wish I could have more time, this thread is getting good. But I'm out for the next 5 days, got a nice long drive down to Montana, and back. Sadly no computer where I am going, will be fiending. Looking forward to reading all the coming replies, and crazy-sauce posts I'm sure will ensue. LOL

EDIT: Had to add a bit

Sadly, I'm thinking the Devs are in design lock (or will be soon). Doubt this made, or will make any change at all. I think "we" necromancers need to be crucified first, before they give back our mana regen. People will need to see for themselves how bad off we will be first hand. Sucks we need to go through that process. But maybe something can be learned in the process. Maybe a bit of trust, and listening to hard evidence / numbers from people who actually play the class.

Or I could be completely wrong, and it wont stop with us necros, and soon everyone with burst mana regain abilities will be nerfed as well in short order... who knows. I just hope no other class has to go through what we are going through now... Wonder how our epic turns out...

Peace out.

Well blood magic alone would buy you an extra 6 minutes before going oom.

And somewhere between maxing out aa's and being raid geared has made mana inconsequential for me. Thats without using specialize alteration aug, affliction efficiency tribute, and blood magic. I hit death bloom when it pops and I'm good to go.

The real nerfs appear to be just around the corner. Depending on what's done in this week's test patch, necros could take a huge dps hit from the dot modifiers "fix".

To those saying necro will still get groups. In the beta forums there were plenty of people saying with this nerf that no necro would be alowed in their groups as they would be useless when they go oom. I am lucky as I am maxed aa and am raid geared. Add to that the fact that I only group with guidies and close friends and my rl wife. People who aren't going give a care if I go oom and have to sit out a few mobs to get back up to full mana. But for those necros trying for pickup groups or in guild with people who want fast kill groups. Well why take a necro when you can grab another class that can do more damage in a shorter amount of time, therefore killing the mobs faster.

you are fos. when you necro cant find grp you have something to fall back on, you go solo 2/3 name in ROF expansion while some class if they cant find grp they cant do anything in current content atm.

Actually there were very few saying that. Most were the necros saying they'd never be allowed in groups.

I was not really checking to see who was and was not a necro main when I was checking that so I will bow to you on this one. But I do remember seeing alot of post dealing with it.

I will agree with you that necros if they can't find/get a group can go out on their own and xp just fine. I do this 90% of the time. It is the reason I love being a necro. I like to go out and do things at my own pace and not have to worry bout getting others kills. For those like me this won't have to much of an impacted.(Besides making it so we have to stop to med more often). But what bout those people who have necro that hate to solo/molo and just want to group. Yes I have know a few in my years of playing?

Bottom line is this. While this won't hurt the raiding necro very much(as has been pointed out before). It is going hurt the non raiding necro. While it does not mean the end to necros getting groups, It dose mean its going be harder for them to get them.

Any nerfs to any class sucks. Period. And this deathbloom nerf, upcoming Necro Epic nerf, and the nerf to (fix dots) blows. Any class that gets nerfed hurts us all. In the solo, group or raid game.

My .00000000000001 cents worth.

People overreact to all notable nerfs. Pretty much every class has been doomed™ at some point, but they're all still around. Classes bounce up and down all the time. Scent on the winds says all DPS casters are heading down. Not a big deal really, it's happened before.

Using only a portion of the abilities available and apparently burning at a normal clip, the OP lasts 10 minutes. Assuming the numbers he's throwing out are accurate, he'd otherwise last 30 or so. So maybe an extra 10 minutes per hour of downtime. Call it 17%. Big, relatively speaking, though determining the impact requires some extra info.

Honestly, unless you're spending all your time grouped with number-crunchers most people won't care or even know if you pace yourself or sit a bit more often, squeeze in an extra tick or two of OOC before jumping back into the fight. Month or two most won't even remember it was ever any different. Maybe I'm wrong, and everyone in the game now is a with a parser. I'd hope not, but whatever.

But I'd also add that one ability shouldn't be that powerful. Comparing one class using 3 types of regen to others using 8 or 9. Discounting everything that's not available 100% of the time, or it's inconvenient, or because he doesn't have it yet. But if one ability is so strong, what happens when the other skills are available? When you can use Mind Split and Blood Magic and a mount? From the OPs numbers it looks like mind split alone would put him near infinite mana. No one should have that, certainly not with just their own abilities. Whether others do or not would be a separate issue.

For the record, using close to everything possible I burned my beta mage oom in about 15 minutes. Certainly burning faster than I could in any real group. Hard to say how much faster. Casting all the activated mana regens simulates some downtime. Possible it could stretch to half an hour.

The irony is dev's knew about it since Underfoot beta and aside from a small nerf 6 months later, did nothing. These changes for the most part are years after the fact.

Also, for years after death bloom was released, bloodmagic was broken and unusable.

BTW, remember when kiss of erollisi marr came out? One click was a full mana bar. Now it's like 4 spells. Death bloom was well on the same course.