Non-Raiding Necromancers

You would "suggest" that and of course you would be blatantly wrong because you don't play a necro and have no reason to be in this thread with all your class envy vendettas.

Necros (and most other classes) don't have mana problems on raids because of the support, not necessarily because of their own abilities. Group/solo necros will rarely have the same access to mana regain abilities that raiding necros do. Thus this 500+ comment thread that you're not reading yet still commenting in.

Viable or preferred? Viable in my mind is a raid roster or a group can be made with lots of interchangeability without incurring a huge penalty. Note that I did not say "No Penalty". A Huge Penalty is having guilds bench large segments of membership because the winds of balance change did not blow in their favor.

If all were viable then you could look at raid rosters of guilds and you should not see stacking of one or two particular classes for dps in favor of all others. I think this roster speaks pretty well of what classes are preferred balance wise and which are not:

http://www.crimsontempest.net/members.php

Lots of bards, wizards and berserkers. The rest is just enough support classes for adps and the tank/cleric crew.

That is not a roster built for fighting a sustained fight. There are probably other guild rosters similar. This isn't a dig on CT or any other min/max guild. They just work with the pieces on the board. Kinda makes me wonder why mana management is even an issue if everything is burned down in seconds anyway. Seems that this was another windmill getting jousted where there was no problem but they found one anyway and threw the wrong people under the bus.

They are down a few necros because myself and another retired after seeing beta for CoTF in addition to the recent stream of necro, dot or pet related nerfs. But yes great dps that stacks and support are wanted everywhere.

One can indeed question dev intents...

necro sustain VS wiz sustain : and the necro got the nerf?

mage beam VS wiz beam

SK mass killing abilities VS ranger-zerker-rogue mass killing abilities? one of them get an AE lifetap to help them swarm, the others get told decap-HS-assassinate won't be increased.

necro epic getting nerfed, cause they don't want epic to be usefull forever but... sk epic? shaman epic? bard epic?

shaman getting focused spell cause casting 6-7 of them is too tedious.. but SK still need 10 minute to buff themselves after a death

CoTF wasn't mean to be a substantial increase in power however warrior get 3 excellent disc while for most of the classes, the best they get out of CoTF is '' well now I can reach the XXXX AA achievement''

And, at last, one would think after 14 years the balance would be mostly set in place, and all the dev would need is finely tune numbers every now and then... why did the necro get hit with a friggin freight train?

Of 10 guilds sampled that have completed the expansion

32 zerkers
39 rogues
40 wizards

5 out of ten are recruiting rogues and 2 of those are basically closed and open to all classes at the drop of a hat.

Care to revise your BS statement?

Side note rov website sucks on a mobile I couldn't get their roster

Guilds I looked up from lavanet
RF SOD MS IL ROI CT TRITON FWO TR

These guilds are probably seeking berserkers because they are the least represented class and not because woe is the world of the rogue.

Go pick a lock and quit whining.

Glad to see you still go the extra mile, Shiftie.

I didn't know facts were not allowed.

Hyperbole and delusions only gotcha.

Carry on.

I didn't realize a thread about grouping necros should be about the plight of the raiding rogue.

But in the spirit of off topic nonsense I at least wanted accurate off topic nonsense.

You should start writing an app to one of these guilds. They need dps spots filled since all the necros are quitting.

No thanks. Don't have the time.

Do you have time to explain this nerf then, smart guy? You could have sat on the sidelines quietly since as a (retired?) paladin you have no real vested interest on necros getting a fair deal or not.

Nope, you anted up anyway. Good job on really sticking it to me, (since that is one of the few reasons you would really bother to post) but it does nothing for the real issue.

Anyway.

The general scope of this thread is actually class balance. Whatever examples I use are what I use. Necros got the shaft on this one and for some very questionable logic that has yet to be explained. Plenty needlessly get the shaft because of "balancing". Funny thing you bring up all these profound facts and logic, and yet here the game is still for the most part in a state of permanent non-balance. So whatever profound logic you have, along with whatever condescending delivery comes with it, seems to not be getting through. Either that or the devs listen to YOU way too much as a substitute for actual log in time where seeing first hand what is actually going on might have more benefit than reading another parse. You would think with so many locked on to the pulse of how it is or should be with people like you looking out, that the game would be perfect at this point with zero threads like this one.

The nerf to death bloom makes no sense

There now we agree happy? I still don't see what raiding rogues has to do with it. Furthermore why you are complaining about rogue dps deficiencies keeping you out of the 5 top ten guilds who are indeed recruiting rogues if you never intend to apply to one.

That doesn't sound like a discussion about balance at all. It sounds like made up facts to push an agenda in a thread that has nothing to do with it.

Some of the suggestions here would make a fair compromise on raiding necro mana resources. The one I liked best is a 5 min timer that requires ooc. Group necros get to keep using db and they have the same result in limiting raid necros. This change appears to be targeted specifically at grouping necros. Otherwise they could have made other more sensible changes.

A not unreasonable solution.

Having gained more Wizard-like fast acting DPS Necros should have to manage their mana as a limited resouce and DB should not be able to be used continuously.

1) If I have an agenda, its that all classes should be desired and that balancing should be done by play testing on the part of the developers. If you are going to make a situation that marginalizes a class, at least make it sensible and pertain to the current state of things. I used a rogue as an example because it is WHAT I PLAY and know. I could have used monk or ranger or any other class that trades off utility for dps when the so called "utility" has little to no value in the current game. And yet, here we are with utility being used as the rationalization. Mana management is supposedly the rationalization for this necro business and yet if a guild can just blow things up in burst before mana even becomes an issue than how is this rationalization even a rationalization? It reveals a pattern of perceptible senselessness and a state of being out of touch on the part of devs sometime. Perceptible being even if the devs have the best of intent and vast data to support it, the end result comes off as something that is completely nothing less than random stupidity. If a nerf is being rationalized by what goes on in raids, but has the opposite effect, than how much play testing could there have been?

2) I am not blaming rogue dps deficiency on anything directly. I parse just fine. Plus, I don't even care about anything going on at the ultra high end. Your mistake over and over again is assuming that everyone wants to be in those guilds or that crowd. If I want to app than I would app and if my numbers are good than /shrug. Maybe I might get turned away just because Shiftie doesn't like me or they will give me the key to the city. Who knows. I don't care. If I did care I would prefer to be judged on performance in game and not what goes on here. I did use an example where a higher end guild did build a roster that shows a preference to a particular make up. To me, that is a situation that should not necessarily have to exist. Yes, guilds choose who they recruit, but if some guilds only look at the MATH than it could influence a decision to bench someone or not recruit someone else. That is just based on the current class balance state. No one wants to be benched or turned away because some mistake or flavor of the month marginalized something.

To be honest, from an outsiders point of view I guess a lot of this complaining just surprises me yet doesn't at the same time. Yes I raid, but I also hit PUG groups quite often. I really enjoy EQ and even if I am doing nothing in a group other than burning through glyphs its fun to meet people and do things just for the sake of doing em.

That being said, I have never heard anyone in a PUG not want a necro in their group after CotF hit. I haven't heard anyone mention " nah, we dont want a necro their dps blows now with the dot/db nerfs ". I have never heard any non-necro group member complain a necro has to occasionally med.

Do I agree with the nerf? No. Do I think DB should have been tweaked someway else? I don't know or really care. I am not really familiar enough with other classes to really state how it should have been if it was needed. Its been a running joke with most people I know that necros were pretty much god-mode when it comes to doing whatever you want (raid, group, solo for xp, solo/molo nameds, etc ). I guess its just really hard for me to shed many tears when now I guess I merely see them as demi-god mode instead.

Being a priest class that rarely ever gets in a PUG to do priestly things ( still a stigma about nonclerics being a main healer I guess ), I have to rely on druid dps to prove my worth. I have to regularly med. I guess since no one has ever complained to me about having to duck out of the occasional mob I don't see the big deal in anyone else having to do the same...since druids are still the only mana based class in the game with zero active mana regen.

Anyway. I am sure this will be followed by a few variations of " you aren't a necro so shutup" or " you are a raider so shutup " posts. Continue on with your regularly scheduled programming.

Why not use ROIs roster then they have like 6 or 7 rogues and only 2 zerkers? Because it didn't match up to your irrelevant point.

I have played a necro quit a bit and his low aa count and marginal gear were completely meaningless when db functioned on a 3 minute timer. I was able to sustain mana forever casting the most mana intense spells. This leads me to believe the nerf was targeted at that gameplay and not at raiding necros at all. Especially in light of most raiding necros saying this has no impact on them.

The devs can say this was directed at raiding necros but I don't have to believe them any more than I do any other time they make illogical changes. But in this scenario they are god and have the final say. In the end just an example of "the problem of pain".

Tarrin, it is Mount Saint Molehill, but the complaining comes from the lack of substance to why things get changed. If the reason given is to do an adjustment on raiding but all it does is shaft groupers while doing nothing to the subset that were actually advertised as being the reason, then yah. If you are going to nerf groupers than just come out and say it. If the reason is group necros are over powered/out of balance..then just come off and say it. Everyone is too busy being offended or afraid to offend so NO ONE EVER SAYS WHY DECISIONS ARE ACTUALLY MADE. Either they don't want to or they don't really know what they are doing at all.

ROI is what would be called an "outlier" in statistics. That guild should never be used as a fair metric for anything going on in EQ.

And you are OK with being fed a line of bull by devs? It certain gets your panties shoved way up your crack if I post something you feel is off base, since I am not anyone in authority so it is imperative that my facts be 100% straight even though I have ZERO influence on any kind of outcomes. Apparently we all are so desensitized by those in authority feeding us the same old bull that no one ever thinks that we could try the truth for a bit.

Again, all DB does is allow us to sustain our damage, which is very important for making solo and group play enjoyable. It does not affect our ability to kill a given mob. No one wants to med. Why should any class have to sit and stare at a screen? It was bad for gameplay then, and it is bad for gameplay now.

Your entire post makes no sense. Don't use this one guild because they are an outlier but use a sample size just as small and push it off as fact. At least I took them time to read all the rosters lol.

Beyond that your second paragraph reads like you might need more sleep or more coffee maybe both.

I'm not accepting anything except that the devs are not being completely honest with the player base or themselves at which they can stick their fingers in their ears and plead ignorance either way. Their answer is because they said so no matter how illogical it is. We don't make the rules we just abide by them. I'm not wearing underwear thanks for the concern though. I have a long history of calling people out for making things up on this message board. Stop being so mad you were so wrong. A simple my bad would have sufficed.

“The intent of this change is the make mana a resource again. For a very long time now, Necromancers have operated in raid environments with effectively unlimited mana. This is the reason for the change. Death Bloom is still a useful ability, but we just don't want it being used continually.

As an aside, I have reduced the heal penalty to 60 percent.”

Perhaps why was said:
1. The intent of this change is the make mana a resource again.

2. For a very long time now, Necromancers have operated in raid environments with effectively unlimited mana. This is the reason for the change.

3. Death Bloom is still a useful ability, but we just don't want it being used continually.

People are focusing on #2 because they don't want to manage mana as a resource in group content (it should be in order to regulate the recently granted Wizard-like fast dot capability). Unlimited mana in group content is $$$.

And because they do want to use Death Bloom continuously or as close to continuously as they can in group content.

Hence the focus on quick kill groups (which have fallen sufficiently out of favor that Assassinate, Headshot, etc. will not be improved) rather than on normal grouping.

The suggestion Shiftee highlighted, 5 minute timer and must be in OOC satisfies 1, 2, and 3 above. Which of course people not wanting those things to happen would oppose.

I would if it was anyone other than you. However, I don't like or respect you. Thus, no "my bad" for you.