Non-Raiding Necromancers

Somewhat sad to see players leave the game over changes. Whenever there is change that decreases a portion of one's power, there are many ways to react and handle the change.

Fortunately I know of several necromancers who have learned to adapt to the change, adjust their play style slightly, and are still successful in Everquest. One I know of is already savior of 1/2 the CoTF zones, and I believe is currently working on a third. Has also ran multiple heroic adventures with several people, each one being a full success.

So while some respond in anger and resentment, others are responding with changes to how they play... and still seeing positive results in game. Good to those who continue to be successful with their class and the tools they have at their disposal!

And what about those of us who don't have a full group of patient understanding friends to play with? Those of us who have at best two others and no bard/chanter to help us bridge the massive mana gap that now exists?

What about the soloers? The people who rely on pickup groups made of whomever they can find?

Yeah your 'just learn to deal with it' mantra doesn't take them into account.

Stop trying to make this seem like it is anything but a game ender for Necromancers.

So we should just suck it up?


The notion that we should sit idly by just because they can still make "progress" after being severely neutered is hard to understand. So you have a friend who despite his current status has managed to complete some heroic missions? Cool. I bet that group would have been successful without him. He's the savior of 1/2 CoTF zones? Cool. As has always been true with EQ, if you waste enough time in Norrath

The math didn't really add up before the changes to dot dps and our regen nerf. Now it really doesn't add up. I hate making class comparisons as I have always felt strongly that each class should have a niche of sorts, but really ... look at it ...

-Our sustained dps in groups was already lackluster by wizard comparison (short fights)
-Our burst damage is laughable by wizard comparison
-Now our mana regen is likewise ... laughable by wizard comparison

The one trick up our sleeves is that we had extra mana to burn - now that's irrelevant.

The biggest question I have for sony (and the one they have yet to proffer an answer to) is ... WHY?

Why this? Why now?

Couple of things, one people attacking Battleblade need to understand he voices his opinions even though you disagree its his opinion. Everyone has the right to voice their opinions even if that opinion is only serving to their own agenda.

The bigger thing is what happened to the necro community? If you have played a necro from the early days you should well be use to the class envy that takes place in this game. It is nothing new to get hit by the nerf bat especially if you're a necro. You should be well use to this by now. Why over the last two nerfs that have happened have you all become the wizards of EQ? Recently necros have been nerfed but the reactions lately have made every necro the new wizard whiners of EQ. I retired and only lurk from time to time but up until recently if you love your necro and enjoyed your necro you overcame and adapted any nerf they threw our way. We didn't whine or threaten like most of you are doing. You moved on and still enjoyed the class and continued to be a dominant class even though adversity was thrown our way through envy and false information other classes liked to use against us to prevail and make it the class that it is. Voicing your displeasure is one thing but most, lately reflect poorly as the class that has always risen and overcome any nerf SOE thrown our way. If your gonna quit over the nerf then quit but show your true pride as a necro and disappear with class and leave the title of the whiniest class to all the other classes. Fight for what you think is justifiable but do it in a way that shows the necro as the great class it was and will always be. Don't use hollow threats and whining to get your point across. Leave that to the other petty classes that have always used that stuff against us since '99.

Amorcen

How would mages feel if they were nerfed? Say..if you use a mod rod you would have to wait 10 before usinging gather potential/gather capacity/gather magnitude? And vise versa. Wouldn't you be upset too?
I BET that is going to be looked at to; after all...it's about "making mana a resource again".
All it takes is ONE less spell to cast.

For once I am happy I am a druid. Only priest/caster in the game that doesn't have to worry about their active mana regen being nerfed!

Yes, I remember many nerfs that hit necro class during all those years. Yes, we adapted. But there is a limit to a person's patience, and it seems that people are reaching that limit now.

What are your suggestions?

Group geared melee have two issues that have nothing to do with necromancers.

One requiring more support to excel, which came about from melee evolving from pure sustained to getting yellow mana and becoming burst. This is long since forgotten or not even known by many. You were granted said burst but only if you had support now it seems silly but that was the original intent.

Two the fact that Aristo and the team won't admit that they goofed with rk 2 spell power. It is far to powerful compared to group weapons. There is no reason rk 2 group spells need to be 85-90% of the power of rk 3 raids spells unless group weapons are also 85-90% the power of raid weapons. Poor design and they are sticking to it.

Just to recap for necros:

Deathbloom nerfed, more than triple the recast time. No adjustments to spell costs or nature of class in group game compared to others who can manipulate burst dps levels and OOC regen. 4 year old nerf

Pet power nerfed, weakened power granted to pets from focus. Claimed this was to prevent raid pet tanking when in fact this has little to do with spamming raid mobs with pets. 8 year old focus nerf.

Pet spell runes, hit limit and damage cap added completely gimping these lines with the claim of being able to carry them forward. Should have left alone and never upgraded if they maxed out. 10 year old nerf.

Pet AA abilities, nerfed pet DA to prevent chain casting DA on pets while holding aggro. I 100% agree with this nerf but once they fixed pet DA to no longer work in this manner the long reuse AA version should have been adjusted to get it back to what it did in some way, like fortitude or impenetrable. 4 year old nerf.

Slot 3 augs, robe clicks, nerfed so that overcrit or other factors are balanced into them. However the robe click was already balanced by these facts and slot 3's doing more was offset by the fact that + spell damage still doesn't work properly for dots. The boost from songs and aura are tiny yet they now have caused a bigger issue in the wrong direction in the name of "balance". 6 year old nerf.

COMING SOON, epic nerf. The change to be made and impact felt is TBD because yet again we only get to talk about it once its in and locked for months. 10 year old nerf.

Good times. Giving the people what they want instead of what the need leads this game into the crapper finally.

I may be wrong, but I think most people want some resembelance of game balance. If that means adjusting some spells or AA or disciplines in order to achieve this, whether it be in the positive or the negative, then so be it.

I also may be wrong, but I think most people also want some resembelance of a game challenge. It is really no fun to play basketball against elementary school kids when you are Michael Jordan. While we all want to win and be successful, most of us also want to do so against worthwhile competition and challenge.

And to the poster who was asking me how I would react if magicians had Gather Potential lengthened in recast time... what do you think magicians did before Gather and self mod rod? We managed our mana, we prioritized our play style, we sat out if need be, and we still got into groups and were successful in content.

Successful people adapt to change to be successful.

Are your fellow players the competition, or is it the content?

Crabs in a barrel.

Balance is a myth its impossible to do except for small periods of time here or there. However the closest you can get to balance would be....

Undoing all the recent nerfs implemented to necros, zerkers and wizards. Boost rogues to the point they can compete with zerkers and wizards. Nerf wizards secondary or tertiary abilities that don't stack and now supplement the giant boost in sustained they have seen or drastically change nuking mana costs. These classes should dominate 90 sec or under fights under burn and then putter out. Tune melee to be a little less support dependent via non modifiable fast reuse abilities this benefits raids and groups. In the group game totally revamp rk 2 spell power so that its not as powerful as it is in relation to rk 3 spell power or totally revamp group weapon power to be equivalent to how powerful rk 2 spells are. Stop making mobs, missions and tasks such a joke so that no one with 2 mercs struggles with them which then makes it so easy that some classes with certain tool sets can then solo or molo them not because their class is so OP but because everything has become a joke. Because of the current design of catering to the middle where "no one who pays a sub can be left behind" and thus everything becomes a joke.

Game balance, game challenge .... how is long recast on DB making the game a challenge ?

Cicelee, you often complained on these forums that you don't find game content challenging.

Hmm, you are a raid geared mage in a guild that already beaten some CotF content.

Perhaps you can re-roll less balanced class to experience more challenge? Or perhaps you can take off your raid gear?

Well I, for one, am thrilled that Devs are making mana a resource in raids again. And in doing so, they are nerfing a total of one class who's already lagging behind the others in mana-regen, in a fashion that doesn't really impact their raid-regen due to the fact that no other class has been touched by this sudden mana-is-a-resource nerffairy and can help them compensate, but leaves solo and group-necros functioning at about half the efficiency they used to have, which aligns with their recently stated position that Deathbloom's always been OP and long overdue for this massive nerf which doesn't at all conflict with their previously stated position that Deathbloom and other necro abilities just needed to be tweaked so they were second to Shamans in terms of mana regen.

I must also say how happy I am at the very professional justification for this from SOE's representatives, which amount to a smirking "Change happens, deal with it", and the reasoned arguments from those in the playerbase who are in favor of this nerf which amount to, "Do not question the divine will of the devs, they know exactly what they're doing... despite wildly inconsistent behavior and statements on their part" and "I like it when the paying EQ playerbase gets smaller and support developer behavior which continues this trend", I am especially joyful that the latter seems to be the only feedback that is listened to by the development team.

I have bright hopes for the future of a game dependent upon a paying playerbase, who consistently ignores feedback from this playerbase, except to follow the opinions of those who have outright stated they support segments of the playerbase growing smaller. I'm certain this is a very good business decision and this conduct is exactly the sort of professionalism that will make SOE money and increase its consumer base.

Competition should be your own class.

Trying to compete with classes designed in a drastically different way is like Michael Jordan playing hockey.

Or trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

This nerf is an absolute joke. After raiding today, guess how bad it was? Trick question, because it did absolutely nothing. I never ran out of mana. I have no idea how long an event would have to be for me to run oom at a raid with all the mana regen abilities being tossed around, maybe 20+ minutes, which isn't gonna happen because there are no raids where I have to cast for 20 minutes continuously.

It is effecting me in groups though. I can run oom during a lesson burn, or some of the mass kill missions. So great job on nerfing grouping necros and doing jack squat to your intended target.

How about we make this analogy a little more accurate...

"So guys, I noticed in the EQ basketball tournament, when the Shaman, Wizzie and Bard sit down on the bench, they get iced Gatorade to refresh themselves, but the necro just got her water-bottle taken away and now has nothing but a lukewarm sponge to suck on. Don't you think the necro should get some Gatorade like the rest of the team, or at least her water bottle back, just so that she's not dying of dehydration out on the court?"

"Oh, I see, so you want to give the necro free steroids! That's not very fair to the rest of the team, is it?"

"No, I just think that it's not cool to take away something she needs to keep up with the others, something everyone else already has. If she doesn't die out on the court, if the rest of the team doesn't end up ignoring and rejecting her because she can't function effectively without the same resources they have, she'll probably just quit herself out of frustration."

"Well maybe she should quit then! Change happens, successful players adapt to it and keep going, you'll notice the rest of the team's adapted to the hydration-rationing, why can't she?"

"The rest of the team hasn't been so ridiculously short-changed-"

"I can't hear you over the sound of my certainty that the manager knows exactly what he's doing!"

As a druid, I would have loved some gatorade..or heck, that lukewarm sponge :\

I don't think they understand balance at all.

Case in point, Monks and Rogues should not compete with Zerkers and Wizards because Monks and Rogues have "utility". As a rogue, my dps should lag behind a zerker because I have SoS and can pick locks/find traps. Since there are so many traps I need to find or locks that I have to pick or the entire house of cards comes down. Right. Congrats me on "Utility" that has no use at all in the current game but since I might be needed to open a few chests in that one MPG trial, a Zerker should do substantially more dps than me. At least as far as RAIDS go and yet RAIDS seem to be where everyone looks for data to balance the game.

At this point now, if you want to raid and are not a cleric, tanking class or a bard, you need to have a few characters able to be raided with, because "balancing" always makes a flavor of the month. I know for a fact that if I wanted to get into a upper end raid guild, I would not pass muster just because I am a rogue. These guilds want Berserkers and Wizards. And why shouldn't they? My DPS is not at that level so why should they bring in me as a rogue and waste a raid slot when they can get another wizard?

All these feeble attempts at "balance" pigeon hole classes and sometimes make certain classes undesirable in both raiding or the group game. Mostly because the data for balance comes from raiding and the excuses for nerfing/stagnation come from the group game. It would behoove the devs to actually play their game and witness the monster that they have created from time to time, instead of relying so much on the Squint Squad of number crunchers/parse-o-holics like Beimeith to balance their game for them.

"Woah. This person has lots of pretty numbers for us! He or she must be smart. We like smart. Because they have data. We like data. Lets put this person in the driver's seat and we can kick our feet up".

Numbers are great, but there have been lots of squints with lots of numbers over the years and yet the game is still FUBAR. Check the math at least or what it produces after the fact. It comes under "trust but verify" at the very least.

We as players get promised balance, they've never delivered so forgive us if we have no faith in our current Dev team to deliver on such promises.

The promice of balanced was replaced by us being told class balance was a perpetual project/there would always be adjustments. And the got superceeded by SOE's goal is to make every class viable.

Viable, not the same.

A Necro posted in this thread that Necros have always been a sustained DPS class, He left out a few things - they've also been pullers, a pet class, and extremely effective soloers vs. mobs that do not summon. He also left out they they have always been at a disadvantage in quick kill groups - DoTs take time.

He also failed to note another class in the caster DPS archetype is a burst DPS class. They aren't pullers, a pet class, nor are they extremely effective soloers.

SOE addressed in part Necro group disadvantage. Quick dots are much more group friendly than dots. Viable. Not Wizards that can also pull, a pet class, and extremely effective soloers vs. mobs that do not summon.

Yes, Necros don't fare well in quick kill/swarm groups. Yep - and if you have the choice of having an SK tank in a quick kill swarm group or a Warrior, choose the SK. If you are going to spend the night in Chapterhouse, choose a Paladin.

Viable. Some very senior Necros are posting that the changes are not greatly affecting things on raids. I'd suggest then they aren't greatly affecting Necros being extremely effective soloers vs. mobs that do not summon, pulling, or pet capability either.

Nor gaining AA from collections, Partisan tasks, normal experience grouping, normal exp grouping mixed with knocking off placeholders hoping a named mob will pop, kill that named if it does pop.

Only curtailed by not continuing Assassinate, bow shotting, out of favor swarm groups - something most group players are not particularly good at in the first place - see all the advertising for PLing in general. If all classes were good at that no one would need to offer or want to pay for such services.

Yep, fast damage spells/abilities with fast refresh and an unlimited supply of mana or endurance would be awesome. But most classes don't pew pew pew like a machine gun with an unlimited supply of fuel. Nor can they effectively kill named mobs in group content that don't summon. Some (IMO, most) classes are merely viable.

I believe SOE will look to see if Necros are viable, will see that they are, and will continue to want mana to be a resource that must be managed.