I don't know about that specific quote, but what was said was that all DPS classes should be interchangable (monk/rogue AA chat). So I'm all for you getting "monk-like" defenses, so long as I feel my class has a purpose on raids. If we're sturdy but do significantly less DPS, it is sub-optimal to bring a monk at all, and that was the issue we were seeing before this patch. And I question how sturdy other classes seem to think monks are, we have a higher return on AC than some, but we have lower AC from wearing leather. I too get pancaked by AE rampage. We have a relatively quick reuse defensive disc, but using it drops our DPS since it locks out our disc window. That leaves us with mend, which I admit is very nice, but our other pure melee brethren have group/raid ADPS buffs to add to their desirability as well. The point I'm getting at is there shouldn't be a blanket statement that X melee should beat Y melee under all timespans. There is a lot more nuance to the argument that each side can make. The larger point of this thread is what needs to be looked at. Casters and melee scale very differently, and there are several significant advantages casters currently hold. Not the least of which is the absolutely ludicrous jump this expansion saw in constant AE rampage damage. There should not exist a mechanic that prohibits half of the DPS classes from doing their job for the entire fight if they want their health bar to remain above 0. Then we have glyphs which favor the casting classes and their significantly higher crit rates, as well as all other crit type benefits. Then there is support class dependency, which is much higher for melee. Melee range is another thing to consider, it's a lot harder to stay within melee range of a mob than to be within 200-250 EQUnits of them.
should be interchangeable. i hope they have not said that, because the way they are balancing zerkers now with 12 min fade and no defensives and tons of detrimentals, chance of premature ending og burn. look you cant have it all, i hope devs realize this and make it something for something as it is suppose to be. Monks has wanted it all for a while now, and lucky for you it seems like you are getting it atlast.. But i guess there is no idea in arguing, almost everyone feels that they should just top every parser no matter how much utility and survival they have. Btw. pretty much everything you said is propaganda, your abilities has real use - end of story, if you dont know how to use them effectively in a raid i feel sorry for you. a decry death on you while burning and now blocking a couple of hits if you should get agro or rampage - sure thats useless. 2 min fade, useless as well? being less support dependent than other melees. yeah thats useless also..... oh yeah and mend, yeah thats useful you reckon. Blanket statement: , Berserkers should trumf monks at any duration of fight and by a margin that is not nonsensical... If you cannot deal with that statement in my eyes you have no credibility, because you take all your great ultity and survival and label them as useless while you just ask for more and more and more and more..
So ask for a faster fade or more sturdiness. If you are not happy to can always /reroll. Again. And again. Until you find a class that either makes you happy or at least a bit less embarrassing.
I dont want faster fade or more durability - i want to get DPS rewarded for the choice i make. which is why i dont go to boards as a monk and ask to have lazerbeam eyes and top parser but instead chose to reroll berserker because after what i have heard devs say, more ultility is held against you DPS wise, so the more your role is pure DPS the higher you are balanced on the DPS, some DPS classes with tedency to burst perhaps and some towards sustained, but pure DPS is pure DPS. Look i am not looking down on monks, but i think it is a bit redicilous that monks feel entitled to top a parser, with their survival and how their discs are built i see them as the stable and reliable of the melees. I feel monks should do great DPS, but not the best DPS. that should be reserved for the 3 pure dps classes. Rogue, Berserker and Wizard. Thats just my opinion and it seems like it follows the philisophy of devs well, just not the realities of the game... Btw. i know a dev. plays a necro in a high level guild and another has been playing a monk atleast since VOA, so chances are you will get lazer beam eyes. 8-P
I don't personally like that route to balancing as in the limit it ends up as just one class left (ok it's balanced) and the game becomes DULL! There are meant to be differences. Some are meant to dps. Some are meant to take hits more than others (tanks). Some are meant to heal. Those are the purest classes I guess. Then there are varying degrees inbetween them. If you're 90% dps but 10% tank then expect to do less dps (it doesn't even have to be 90% of it, 95% would do). If you're a dps class than also can do moderate heals, slows, buffs (hello bst!) then also expect to be less than the more limited dps classes. Asking for abilities from another class in order to balance is *so* not the route that most of us want to go down. We just want our single-minded pure dps focus to be rewarded.
I agree with every word you said, Rogue / Bers / wiz are the pure DPS, we chose these classes for that reason alone. I dont think a stable high DPS as monks are with good survival is useless to a guild in fact on new events monks are in many cases better than us, because you end up surving more AOE's.
Have you noticed you have been the only zerker crying in here and in the monk thread yet? Maybe take it as zerkers are still ahead of monks as they are. Monks just recieved some upgrades and are finally viable on raids again. The pulling game is dead and as for survivability yes its nice to have and they is exactly why we are behind zerkers and rogues in dps. All I see in your posts right now is that you are asking for the devs to nerf monks to create a larger gap between our dps and yours since we are already behind you. DPS should be zerker/rogue then monks as it is now instead of how it used to be zerker/rogue all other classes then monks. Let us have our upgrades and stop pleading for nerfs please. You have also completly gone away from the intent of this thread as well. The intent of the thread is to bring ALL melee UP to caster dps scale. Not lets knock another class down so we can feel better about our class until all melee may or may not be scaled to caster dps. I ask please stop asking to nerf monks and try to lobby for what the thread is really for at least here and if you would like to have monks nerfed start another thread. So maybe then that thread can be locked and this one can stay open before you get this one locked on us.
If monks are surviving AoEs more often than you then a) you need better gear/hp or b) your healers are not doing their job. And I'm sorry but monks are single minded dps-focused. What else is it you think we do on raids? And if you are mixing 'metaphors' with the group game, where a well geared/AA'ed raiding monk can tank trash better than you, then you also need to balance in what you can do too...all this one sidedness is a bit sad. Monks have been down and out for over a year, and after one week of RoF you are all raging like madmen.
Sojuu as said before, i dont want to nerf monks, i just couldn't help jumping at the statements of some of the monks that seems like they felt entitled to do as well as rog / bers (interchangable dps between melee classes!?). I want all of us to do better vs. casters. I want monks to do very well, but monks are to rog / bers what mages are to wizards. I like the monk community even though i am sure it isnt returned 8-D. I believe the greatest imbalance is between us and casters and not between each other (even though i think there is some balance issues here as well).
I dont feel this is right Agge, there is no gear that puts me at 160K base hp, you can purify body, fade, impen (not that useful when burning but makes you tank rampage sustained), decry line. Agge buddy come on, admit that those skills are useful! on a side note i have never raided with as good a monk as this guy, in VOA both me and brogett had our hands full competing with him 8-P.
From the posts I have seen it has always been that we want it to be zerker/rogue then monk then hybrids. I know myself I have always asked for dpsing increases to bring us behind zerkers and rogues. The reasons monks yelled so loudly this time for dps is because beastlords were even passing them. And already had rangers ahead of them. And for the most part monks had absolutely no reason to be on a raid. We were asking for that to be fixed and have it fixed now and as far as I know we are still behind zerkers/rogues. And from what I have gathered from alot of your posts have been saying now we do too much dps and asking for us to be nerfed. If that is not the intent I appologize, but that was the way it sounded to at least me.
This has been said quite a few times over the years, but has anyone actually ever parsed Thief's Eyes? Quite a few times I click it it doesn't stick to anyone anyway... Would be nice to get an actual figure. Then there's mention of SoS, but on failed events mobs bypass the skill. In the group game SoS just saves us that 1 fade when all other classes just train to get to where they need to, assuming a mob doesn't see SoS anyway. Sure it's nice at the early stage of an expansion when exploring but not much different then a monk ID'ing and running around carelessly, or other classes doubling up their invis's. Pretty sure the entire community could agree monks needed help for this expansion, they seemed to have gotten a nice amount but no where near enough. Atm that just leaves Zerkers and Rogues that much further behind (there only seems to be 2 short burn mobs this whole expansion, the rest are all sustained or adds). Currently I wouldn't bother recruiting a rogue if they paid me, they add and bring absolutely nothing to a group or raid. I'd take a zerker only because we only carry 1 semi-active one on our roster. I would take a few more monks, presently. But would absolutely take 10 wizards and another 2-3 (only 2-3 because of debuff limitations, otherwise that number would be 10+ too) necros in a heartbeat. In a group, I'd just take a few wizard mercs over any melee dps class assuming the tank could hold the aggro, or any caster class and just sit back and watch tv. Instead of adding more gimmicks they need to reevaluate dmg values and ratios on weapons. Seems they could bump weapon dmg up by a large margin to help all melee classes as the easiest route. That and eliminating ridiculous ae ramps might bring melee back into balance with casters. Currently (and I could be over reaching just a bit...) it almost seems they could give melee perm shm epic + 100h effects and melee would still need some help for burns, we'd just be more independent by needing less obvious support while helping the sustained issue. There currently is no balance, and far and fewer reasons to actually play if a melee class outside of some loyalty to your guild and the friends you've made along the way... but that gets old quick the longer it stays out of balance.
I am not even sure you are behind us on average parses, i know our top DPS is ahead - but average i am not even sure anymore. Beastlords are beating us as well on everything but absolute burn, their sustained is simply godlike, luckily for the few good beastlords alot of them dont know how to sustain so well. A common thing alot of beastlords doesnt know is that this expansion and last expansion top nuke can be memmed at the same time, same with their dots. very common mistake to see from BLs only to mem the lastest, thinking they are on same timer - anyway i know beastlords are capable of dishing out alot of dmg.
I agree, and yes i think there need rebalancing as well as said a 100 times in different ways. I take it you are a rogue (underplaying the rogue utility 8-D). But i guess devs have a hard job to do. its not easy balancing, that being said ithink they are very hard to deal with for the berserker community - they basically ignore us atm.
We have been complaining alot and all around =/. our main focus has been on the melee v. caster balance because thats the biggest issue..
Like I said, the 12/17 monk AA chat. I wonder why Eli would be talking about pure dps during a monk AA chat discussion??
I wouldn't say I was underplaying Rogue utility, if anything people overvalue it. In raid there's not 1 rogue utility that can't be done by other classes actually doing their intended purpose.
That quote was taken from the monk AA chat, in response to a question about monks. So that is monks being called DPS. There are 6 classes in this game with DPS as their primary role. They are berserker, rogue, monk, wizard, necromancer, and magician. Beastlords and rangers are DPS with healing and decent ADPS capability and other niceties. Bards are obviously ADPS, and the other classes it's pretty obvious where they fall. So I take that statement to be that all 6 of those classes should be equally desirable from a damage perspective. To me, that's the starting point for discussion. Now, there are minor utilities for several of these classes, monks have defense in a pinch more often than the other melees, the other melees have minor ADPS boosts (as I understand it, in the order of 1-2%), magicians have their pets that can tank in a pinch, necros have a pretty strong arsenal of utilities at this point, but none so strong that I'd call them a non-DPS class. There can be nuances to who is the best at burst, sustained, quick switches, AE damage, etc., but each of those classes should be desired relatively equally in groups or raids, and no class should lock down every category for damage.
