Enchanter and Wizard changes coming.

Discussion in 'Casters' started by Sinestra, May 9, 2014.

  1. Sinestra Augur

    According to reports, so far we've seen Wizard claw line will no longer trigger harvest, and enchanter runes are going up in mana cost and down in absorption, and the recast is going up to 12 seconds.
  2. silku Augur

    I've heard up in cost and a 12 second recast (the recast I think is rather long, 6 would be sufficient.) I had not heard down in absorption.. which makes no sense at all. My only concern is this, in group content I already have trouble with aggro on my runes and sometimes have to chain my rune (not to hold aggro, but to stay alive) until the group tank can get a successful taunt off. Now if you make it 12 seconds, then I imagine they won't have to fight me for the aggro of my runes but I'll also be blowing my fade (which has a significant recast on it) very often to avoid aggro. Now why raise it in mana cost and cast time AND reduce what it does? One or the other is the answer. I'm sure there are those who are abusing it to 'tank' and there are times I too have had to tank for a group with it, but it quickly drains my mana. Sure I can tank a few fights in a row for a group (who has to scale back their dps tremendously because I can't hold aggro worth a damn, thanks subtlety), but then we have to med. No enchanter likes a med break.
    Jordis likes this.
  3. Dandin Augur

    The enchanter changes are ridiculous and unwarranted.

    A few patches ago they increased the amount enchanter runes absorbed. Now they are reducing the amount we can cast it?

    PS. SOE. That's counter-productive.

    Stop reducing class power, and just give us more content. That's productive
  4. Sinestra Augur

    [36252/6556] Phantasmal Unity Rk. III
    Classes: ENC/100
    Skill: Alteration
    Mana: 3662
    Mana: 4176
    Target: Self
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    Casting: 3s, Recast: 1.5s, Rest: 1.5s
    Casting: 0.5s, Recast: 12s, Rest: 1.5s
    Duration: 6s (1 ticks), Extendable: Yes, Dispelable: Yes
    Hate: 5000
    1: Cast: Polyiridescent Rune Rk. III [Spell 36246]
    2: Cast: Mastermind's Rune Rk. III [Spell 36094]

    [36246/6525] Polyiridescent Rune Rk. III
    Classes: ENC/100
    Skill: Abjuration
    Mana: 2442
    Mana: 2723
    Target: Self
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    Casting: 5s, Recast: 1.5s, Rest: 1.5s
    Duration: 42m (420 ticks), Extendable: Yes, Dispelable: Yes
    1: Absorb Damage: 100% Total: 84253
    1: Absorb Damage: 100% Total: 77134
    2: Cast on Rune Fade: Polyiridescent Rune Strike III [Spell 36249]

    This is what we seem to be seeing at the moment.
  5. CrazyLarth Augur

    i am not part of beta so thanks for the info.
    you should ask if their is a new very large harvest bost to refect this change?
  6. Khaibasis Journeyman

    Oh, no! You mean we can't tank Judicator in PoWar in junk gear better than any real tank in raid gear and use a charmed pet to hold aggro lock while keeping up with the DPS classes? We're not Tank/Mages anymore? Woe is us!

    Upping the mana cost doesn't bother me at all.

    The lowered cast time is actually a buff to my normal playstyle.

    The reduction in power takes us further away from Tank/Mage which is a good thing for actual tanks who were quite jealous of our powers, however temporary they were.

    Enchanters should never have been 1st choice of class to tank anything over the tank classes, especially not named mobs, and especially not in the hardest zone in the (group) game.

    So, I'm happy with these changes. It would have been nice to see some more give with the take though.
  7. Sinestra Augur

    Sorry you don't know any capable tanks.
    Ayrre and Dandin like this.
  8. Dandin Augur

    The mana cost isn't the issue. It's the sudden 12 second recast timer that's being added.

    Honestly. Being a raiding Enchanter. I utilize my runes frequently. I use them to survive. Not to tank.

    In fact. Here's a real solution !

    1. Remove all agro from our runes.
    2. Remove the ridiculous recast timer.

    .. There. Now you don't have to worry about some Enchanter trying to tank, and you don't have to sacrifice the rest of our durability.

    You JUST increased the Damage absorption last patch to bring us back in line with survivability where we need to be.
    Adding a recast timer of 12 seconds is a slap in the face to enchanters everywhere
    Jordis, Dre. and Sinestra like this.
  9. silku Augur

    I do know capable tanks. The problem is not EVERY tank is a capable tank. Spend a little time in the group pool and you'll find tanks that haven't figured it out yet. Not to mention the entire difference in curve in group tanks vs raid tanks with gear. Sure, I could just refuse to group with a tank if he doesn't have 9k ac and 120k hp, with 10k+ aa....
  10. Khaibasis Journeyman

    OK, I'll admit to a little hyperbole there, but still, I shouldn't be able to replace a raid tank against a named mob, and when it comes to named with bad damage shields, or certain other mechanics, I was 1st choice to tank.

    Why do you feel enchanters should be a lot more likely to survive than rogues, monks, berserkers, necromancers, wizards, mages, etc? Vastly more?

    Should the enchanter be the last one standing on a raid wipe? Why?

    Where do we "need to be" and why?

    I'll tell you where I think we should be: I think it's fine that we are a little less squishy than we look, being robe wearers. We are the rune class. It should not put tanks out of a job (have the monk/ranger/etc. tank the trash, and then let the enchanter tank the named).

    What I would have like to have seen is a buff in another area to soothe the pain of the nerf bat. The reduced casting time is a nice start.
  11. Dandin Augur

    That's not the relevant point of discussion, Silku. The point is. We are getting a reduction in survivability. This is a problem for all enchanters.
  12. silku Augur

    It is relevant to the discussion. Someone else brought it up so I responded. All input is relevant.

    As to your idea to remove all aggro from runes (unity) and leave them as is, I'd actually be behind that.
  13. Vlerg Augur

    Can'T say i'm happy about the claw change... however I do understand it ; we burst high and sustain high just cause of claw.

    however, without that harvest, our burn isn't the highest at all and sustain drop by a very large margin.. so unless the mob die in 3-5 min ( and to be honest most raid bosses do...), that's gonna hurt ( not as much as melee rest nerf tho)
  14. Dandin Augur

    Enchanters should be more durable then our caster counterparts due to the fact that we have a higher risk to taking damage when we are performing our primary duties (Crowd Control)

    You don't see mages or Wizards or Necromancers running headlong into the crowd of adds, stunning, rooting or mezzing trying to maintain control. You see an Enchanter running into 5, 10, 20 mobs, trying to establish control.

    You might not see this much in the group game, but. Let's use a few raids as examples.

    1. shards landing raid, Event starts and 10-12 mobs rush the raid, all trying to pick off a player and kill them. an enchanter needs to rush forward and establish control. Once control is gained, as the raid kills Witnesses, other NPCs spawn from the dead witness.. With the runes being changed, I'm going splat. These targets also have a timer that counts down, making them immune to mezz for 20+ seconds

    Later on in that event, (phase 2) the Bosses health locks. He spawns yet more shrouds. With similar rulesets to those in phase 1.

    That's a Rain of Fear raid. Yea. But it's still a raid.

    All right. COTF raid. etheremere.

    waves of adds spawn and rush the raid. All of which need to be controlled. Some are mezz able, some are not. So.. AE stun is used. Without runes to sustain the damage I'm taking. I'm going to die.

    The bottom line is.
    Enchanters NEED to be able to sustain thier runes on themselves at all times in order to survive. An enchanter without runes on trying to maintain crowd control WILL die, and the rest of the raid will follow

    Because of the dangerous nature of our PRIMARY function, we need to be able to survive the damage we are taking. We are already at a disadvantage based on our armour type and mitigation table. adding a 12 second timer to our runes is going to frustrate a lot of Enchanters. And let's face it. The class is rare enough already

    History across all the changes (read nerfs) that our class has experienced, we have never been granted any form of compensation for the reduction of any ability.

    This change should not make it to the live servers. Instead. Reduce the agro gain from our runes to 0, and leave the recast time alone.

    We already pay the cost in mana to have these runes on. It's not like we can sustain a rune chain indefinatly. We will run short on mana and die.
    Jordis likes this.
  15. Khaibasis Journeyman

    While I disagree with you, I do want to point out that that was probably the most reasonable, nicest post I've seen out of you in a long time, and I've been a long-time lurker. Kudos, seriously.

    I haven't tried it, but I expect that the enchanter running headlong into a pile of mobs to CC them will be more likely to survive with this change, and not less. Here's why: the big killer is going to be initial resists. By lowering the casting time, we're actually better protected than before from initial resists. You have less probability of being interrupted casting the 2nd rune, and it happens faster so you can get the 2nd attempt at CC done that much sooner, further reducing your vulnerability. It's only when they chew through the 2nd rune, and the 2nd attempt at CC fails that you're much worse off than before.
  16. Dandin Augur

    When you are taking hits from more then one NPC. Your 2nd rune cast is gone so fast it doesn't matter. Your toast.

    Try this. As you don't raid (apparently?)

    Pull 3-5 NPCs. See if you can handle doing anything before your first rune drops.

    You'll quickly see my point
    Jordis likes this.
  17. Coldfire Rage New Member

    we can tank all group boss content as it is. with one issue. dps can draw them off of us. but many times if the tank drops i drop in and hold the line till tank gets called back and rebuffed. and mana wise.... can hold runes for a very... very long time. im hoping masterminds rune will be on a seperate timer than poly rune. might be able to work out something.....
  18. Dandin Augur

    Well, that's the reason I said that we should sacrifice agro on runes. I would prefer that then this ridiculous recast time...
  19. Khaibasis Journeyman

    Raids are about large groups working together. While enchanters often pull for single groups, it is generally a bad move to have enchanters pulling for raids. A raid can be expected to have monks, SKs, and/or bards who enjoy being useful to the raid in that way. While enchanters can hang back and CC from afar.

    So, since someone else pulled, the enchanter is free make their first CC attempt. Now, anything you failed to CC is probably going to attack the enchanter, but instead of having to cast for 3 seconds, it's now down to a mere half second. My premise is that not getting beaten on for an extra 2.5 seconds is probably worth the reduction in power and the inability to cast a 3rd time after 9 seconds of beatdown.

    1.5 GCD after the first attempted CC + 3 sec rune + 1.5 GCD + 3 sec rune

    And that's if you are using an AA as your 2nd CC attempt. If you're casting another spell, you'd have to add its cast time and another GCD before rune #3 happens.

    While these changes make us less survivable as tanks, I think they improve survivability as enchanters.
  20. Jordis Augur

    Enchanters are not tanking just because they're surviving some extra hits. If you're casting runes to stay up you are NOT dealing damage with the rune recast as they are now. You are, in effect, becoming a Phantasmal Pet that sucks up damage and does next to no damage. I "tanked" the Judicator a few times, but it was regaining hp until the rest of the group was up and could take over doing the dps. That's not tanking. There is no comparison between an enchanter and ANY other dps class because we do not have the same damage dealing abilities. We may be the last one standing in a group, but that is not the same thing as tanking. Are you tanking the charm solo target? No? Then you're not a tank. Any tank class in the game would laugh their heads off if it was suggested that an enchanter was any kind of competition for the role.

    You can not "tank" any of the current top levels tasks with runes. Fact. You can't even use a merc tank in most cases.

    Are you "tanking" your charmed pet's targets? No? Then the runes are not giving you any advantage over the other caster classes, let alone any melee class with AC, clickies, discs and other attributes.

    Perhaps the old school way of play is out of date with everyone relying on mercs, but it still serves if the enchanter plays a group role instead of just focusing on charm solo.

    For example, in a recent try on Rolfron the cleric and I were the last alive. The goal was not for me to tank it while the cleric healed, obviously I can't generate enough dps to take Rolfron down, or the Judicator, especially with nothing that can be charmed, but I CAN last long enough for the cleric to camp out, or for the cleric to get a couple of rez's in and keep the group or raid going. That used to be of major importance before everyone had a merc cleric in their pocket, the lobby where you can summon, rez and run-back fully equipped, or even take a portal or campfire right back to where you were fighting. In my opinion it is still important.

    It is still important enough to explain why the runes should NOT be changed.

    Melee get augments and weapons that proc runes, and while the amount may seem trivial in terms of what one single cast of any of our runes, they hit so fast that they have far better rune protection than we do. They don't even care whether they get runes cast on them by us now. If you don't believe me, ask any tank type about the proc rate on those augments and weapons.

    Frankly, I think it's time the developers stopped relying on beta input from whoever manages to get their toons in for the goodies and start paying attention to some input from people who are playing the role full time, solo/charm, group and raid. They want us to group, then by damn, they should be leaving us the tools to do so.