Discussion in 'Casters' started by Sinestra, May 9, 2014.
If chanters aren't silk tanks then why are all of our chanter gear heroic agility based? Runes are for surviving while CCing, always have been since we got the first one at level 13, then 19, 22,33, 38, 40, 47, 52, 58, 61, 63, 66, 67, 69, 71, 74, 75, 76, 79, 80, 81, 84, 85, 86, 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95, 96, 98, 99, 100, many robe clicks and focuses, epic clicks.
Most chanters in their right mind don't want to pull agro and tank 15 mobs when they could be AE stunning, AE mezzing, nuking, without risk of being one rounded when they can't get a rune off because a mob happened to break it on incoming and the chanter of course has to refresh that rune. The aggro is unwanted.
Because the idea of chain casting Unity is broken tactic that we shouldn't have access to - in any zone. This isn't just my opinion, its what Sony has decided. Be happy the "nerf" was so mild...it should be more drastic, and perhaps will be in the future.
I rarely comment on other classes, unless I've played them extensively and my full expertise with enchanters ends sometime during Velious.
I've always thought of enchanters as the most powerful class in EQ. To me their power runs somewhat perpendicular to the path of the game, so despite having some crazy abilities, most of those abilities just don't fit or apply to situations where they are permanently game breaking. I wish enchanters would continue to be tuned as such, but for longer than I can recall they've only been denied abilities that offers them such unique powers. The class needs a fair amount of work.
Now with regard to runes and rune tanking, which I do have extensive knowledge of, I completely feel it should be possible to a degree. Those that know how to push the limits of this game can take this to a degree that is beyond what is likely desired however. As a wizard with about 1/4 of the rune power of enchanters, I have no issue tanking anything in the current game outside of raids, and I would not be bashful to stand against a lot of the raid targets with a good healer.
Rune tanking is a lot more complex than just chain casting a single rune over and over. You have to time abilities correctly and cast in a reactive way if you take a bad round. If you've geared yourself around tanking, you take fewer and fewer bad rounds. This allows you to ease off, saving mana and life saving abilities for when they are needed, allowing you to tank fairly efficiently. You can use abilities to stun, mez, blur, push, pull, bounce aggro, avoid rounds between summons, etc. You also need to have an extensive knowledge of aggro and all associated tricks to keep it. It really is an art form.
I don't feel that that ability should be ended, but when I've played my enchanter (which I lack skill to play in most other areas) I feel nearly invincible when I start applying my rune tanking knowledge. There is certainly a line that can be crossed here. I don't think the fix is quite so simple though, as enchanters need some serious protection on raids and should still have a solid ability to tank with runes in my opinion, it just needs to remain in check. A change may have been needed, but odds are the most recent change is the typical overreaction to an issue that is becoming all too common.
I take it you are an SK and not an enchanter, and that you probably haven't updated your Magelo profile in quite a while, either that or you're still in the 80s. If so that explains a lot, spells change dramatically at level 90 with the House of Thule expansion AAs and spells. That was the expansion that had enchanters coming back to EQ because some effort at listening and making changes was actually made.
ALL of the runes that were effected were from level 90 to 100, so if it didn't effect the play-style it's because you were probably under 90 and had the old runes that really did pull aggro. We got some decent changes that are now being nerfed (using that tense because I suspect it's not through). It's been two years and the mobs hit harder and faster, slow and other spells have been mitigated. You remember when the last HoT AA was nerfed as "too powerful" for a level 100 enchanter but not an 88? EQ: Mental Contortion (from Alla) Quick Facts: House of Thule, Total AA 15, Cooldown 1:00:00, "this ability, when activated causes your target's mind to twist inflicting intense pain and damage, while reducing their ability to do damage to you.
It might have been over-powered for a level 88 or even 90, but at 100 it appears that the intent is to increase damage taken by an enchanter when doing what they're supposed to do. And slowly eroding what few changes we've gotten through actual class/developer cooperation.
The enchanter was originally the master of aggro control and crowd-control ; then rightly so, the SK got a lot more ability in that department since they SK was a plated tank and has a higher AC. The SK and enchanter make an awesome working team. But managing aggro, switching it to where it belongs, gaining it, removing it are primary to the enchanter role. An enchanter wants to generate and hold aggro when the tank dies and everything goes down so there is a chance for recovery or a tank to get the aggro. Rarely should an enchanter even try for any specific aggro, the point is to mitigate it and make sure it stays on the tank, a real tank.
You do can get aggro, purposefully, if you use pbaoe STUN, or you run the aggro visage aura, throw out some mez's on incoming, particularly when you know that there's going to be a resist. That's why we need runes when casting stuns and mez. Trick learned from a friendly tank for getting aggro on incoming or just about any time during a fight....sit down, or loot a corpse. I've used that and counted on the runes (self, fast casting runes that worked as they were intended and scaled just fine with the higher level content) and my Mez ward to bring the aggro under control and count on the tanks and melee to grab that aggro and tank it.
We don't have to beg to get another nerf, just watch for updates.
That sounds like a threat.
SONY did not decide this, some EQ developer did. Developer or developers that have made it clear over many years that the enchanter class doesn't get the same courtesy or consideration that the other classes get. In part I think that's due to the enchanters who just love to charm solo and think they're big and tough but have no idea of how to group effectively or raid effectively; then there's the people who do not play that think they know what's going on and just have to put their two cents worth in.
It is odd that the same people are always peddling the "Shut up and stop whining because there's nothing you can do about it" line, and the inevitable "Oh, the developers did such a great job" regardless of what it is. I stopped believing that line of propaganda the day I sat and heard a SoE EQ developer on a table talk at the first Las Vegas Fan Faire dismiss an enchanter question with the observation that the enchanter class was over-powered and he knew because, and I quote, "I played one and exploited the hell out of it." I wish I had gotten the guy's name, and that I hadn't walked out and stayed and told him what I thought then, but I still had some hope that someone else would be rational. But it was already clear at that point that the subject was off the table, and the people that did stick around said nothing else came up.
SoE developers report to managers and other people in SoE that might want to hear from us about this issue; after all it seems like they're getting the blame rather than the actual people doing it.
I can't find the link. Did you get a chance to post it yet?
I re-read this as I was paging through the messages. The answer to the 2nd part is easy. Unless you are dueling you can't debuff someone's runes or any other buff.
Mobs can dispel anything they want. It's a coding change. Has nothing to do with dueling? I'm not talking about YOU dispelling me.. I'm saying if I am the 'tank' on Judicator, and he sees a rune on me.. he casts a dispel. Would make EVERYONE have to watch their buffs. Warriors /paladins/sks would even have to worry about rune procs off their weapons. Make judicator harder, not nerf a class over one tactic.
Do they have the ability currently to dispel certain types of buffs? I haven't raided in a while, but I don't recall this mechanic off the top of my head. I suppose it could cast something that overwrites runes, though.
I apologize, I misunderstood what you meant by dispelling the buffs. Warriors aren't using the runes as protection, they're using them to get and keep aggro. It's a different mechanic all together. Other classes have rune-type spells, for themselves and pets, some of which add some nice bonus effects such as mana regeneration, or proc a pet that does damage and grabs the aggro and so on. I frankly do not see where spamming a self-rune is an exploit when a necro (as one instance) life tapping, using pets and other aa/discs takes the hits and heals himself or herself with life taps. It's the appropriate mechanics for the class. I don't think they should be nerfed. What I don't see is why anyone is the least concerned that we can stand up to some punishment with runes (some of which we cast on groups and raids). Perhaps those spell guards and runes are over-powered too? Not likely, they're not enchanters, they're on the big parse and front and center when it comes to dps, so much more important than the buffing classes. (Yes, that's sarcasm).
On Vox. The Chanter population is..
Well. Me. And a host of boxes.
After seeing all the changes to the chanter class, new players aren't being lead to the chanter class, they are being lead away from it.
The new/returning players want to play a class that they see as viable and useful, endgame. They want groups. They want raids
The older enchanters, they are leaving. It's another mass exodus. It's Omens of War all over again. I know of many many old enchanters who have main changed or simply dropped the game altogether.
Guilds are desperately trying to find enchanters. But there isn't any to fill the gaps.
I was recruited from a different server. And it took weeks of convincing.
As it is. I see people replacing my class with boxes.. A class that takes skill and precision... Is now being run as a bot.. Just for buffs.
This saddens me. I am a proud enchanter... Slowly losing what I'm proud of
The mods deleted it (along with many other posts). Not sure if posting videos of enchanters pushing the limits is allowed or not.
That's ok. Can you just send me the link in a PM? Thanks
include me in that as well please? learning how others play the same class can only do one of two things, improve both parties, or start a flame war.
PS I'm not looking to start a flame war, my flamethrower has been broken since like ya know like high school like ya like totally.
And me, I'd like to see this video.
Separate names with a comma.