Enchanter and Wizard changes coming.

Thank you for explaining how my class is supposed to be played. Perhaps you will listen to an alternate view point. My job is crowd control. When you start making statements like "we use rangers to root and WG/MM/HA to bring them in" or when the state of the game is that rangers and shadow knights are the go to crowd control class because of the proliferation of anti mez or mez immune abilities, that is an affront to my class. My job on WK1 ( to use your example ) was to wade into a mass of mobs and start firing color stun and pbae mez ( for the handful of non immune mobs ). My job in this situation is to save the knights and warriors from a few hits because they likely can't survive getting beat on by 3-5 mobs. It is entirely probable that I am going to get some agro from doing this. Patch before last, it was 50/50 on whether I would die depending on how many mobs got ticked off at me. Post the previous patch ( runes upgraded ), it was more like 30/70 die/live. Now, if I pull agro from doing my job, I am going to die while I watch the recast timer. My choices are suck up the deaths or be less active. Neither is an appealing choice as both having me largely watching from the side lines.

I think in the group game, we can largely do most things we did before ( we still have to choose our targets wisely ) and the .5 cast time is a slight upgrade for "oh no" moments. In the raid game, we are facing more hurdles in a place where we already had plenty of hurdles. I went through and rated the raids from VoA->CotF as "mez required", "mez useful", "mez not useful", and "no mez allowed" and came up with 7 "mez useful" 2 "mez required", and 24 raids in the latter two categories. I am still waiting for the raids that remove other classes primary abilities, but have yet to see them.

Are we useful? Sure, we have utility. But almost no one started an enchanter to be the adps guy. People play fantasy games to be a hero, not support. Do I believe people are being a bit hysterical, especially in the group game, regarding this change? Yea, but I also see where they are coming from. Despite what you think, my class was always on the front line. That's why we got fast cast self runes back in Planes of Power, because we were likely to pull agro just doing our job. Making my job more difficult in the few areas it is still viable doesn't sit that well with us.

Not trying to belittle your experiences but if you mez them in WK1, the waves are over 1 min apart, you have multiple runes that you can cast/stack while the 12 second rescast is refreshing, what has changed other than the ability to continually chain cast that rune? Are they getting fading and going after you, well thats where the agro reduce comes in, let your tanks do their job, you just saved them from insta death by mezing. If the mez is getting broken by bad players, well that's just bad players.

We use rangers because we are lucky to get 1-2 enchanters, I wasn't meaning that they cannot be used, and there is nothing wrong with having more than one way to skin a cat. if you can have them all in the area and mezed it makes the waves go faster because the dps doesn't have to move as much and you dont waste time for people pulling them in.

Do it then. Post a video.

Nothing that Chanters were doing was an "exploit" until they ran afoul of the new "sacred cow" Plane of War zone "design".
Then suddenly, they get hit without warning or communication in any form. That's the underlying problem here.
-R

I will. Expect it later today. And when you see the video will you retract this ludicrous position that you and (the vocal minority on this forum) are currently touting?

Rat, EQ has a LONNNG history of ignoring exploits until they garner too much attention. That is exactly whats happened here. Same thing happened with the Spin stun bug, and lurch.

The level 104 mobs (red con) can't be mezzed but agro still applies as if they were. Also resists happen and wardens are aoeing, so damage adds up. It's not a matter of chaincasting runes, but frequently two or in some cases three were needed.

Nah, this affects raiding enchanters far more than group enchanters. I just want to see how many mobs you can pull and crowd control with no outside healing.

I 100% agree. Your tanks should be on the red mobs like a hobo on a ham sandwich, and with the reduced agro this allows them to do their job better and get you killed less. The runes are for the resists, and the "AE's" are avoidable if your tanks face the mobs away from the raid., their cone based not actual AE. If you get enough resists that you get killed, maybe you should work with the other classes that can assist in CC so less of a chance to have resists.

Ohhh so now its only raid situations that are affected. Yet others on the forum are complaining about the GROUP IMPACT of the change. You see, your argument won't hold up with actual people proving they can do just fine in every day scenarios despite the rune fix.

I'm not sure how you got from "this affects x more than y" to "this doesn't affect y", but I'm still interested in seeing the video.

I'm standing a fair ways ahead of the raid to intercept these mobs. If the tanks spin the wardens away from the raid, they're spinning them toward the enchanters. I'm already working with many other classes to manage the flow of mobs, but really, crowd control is the reason for enchanters to exist. Saying "let this other class do it instead" is kinda the point enchanters are trying to make.

I didn't say let another class do it instead, I said work with the to do it together. Also you might try standing with the raid at the front, not infront of the raid, it makes for better results of being out of the damage cone .

Have your SK's do their distance ae agro so they are going after them, gives you time to get them locked down without you getting hit.

Also keep in mind that raiding is where people really have to work together, thinking that one class should not have to have support or the only way to do something is going against the spirit of raiding. Now having one class that can do it better, that's fine, but thankfully EQ has gotten away from the, oh we don't have class X, guess we will try this raid another day guys, let go do something else. Now you can do any raid without a specific class, it might just be a bit harder, which can add to the fun.

Man mezzing on WK 1? lucky enchanters, I stun lock one and keep it that way. with the group i raid with there are 9 raids to be kept down, all of COTF and preferably ROF 1. This leaves with enchanters (there are 4 in the group including myself) with all of three events were we can mez and one event were we CC without mez. Of the three we can mez in, we only do it in one (BW2) as tanks pick up everything else. Of the one were we CC without mez we do about 5 min worth of work then wait for some one to fk up.

Enchanters, as a class, should be outside the box thinkers, we use the tools we have avilable to do what we do. Am i hurt over the changes to runes? yes but ill get over it, i'll find some other way to do what i do. But i am MORE HURT over the fact that this was NEVER disscussed NEVER open for disscussion, and NEVER considered that the people maining an enchanter should have input into there class, as was done FOR EVERY OTHER CLASS. In the end enchanters have had a lot taken away and some stuff added back in, but due the the changes made we have evolved to better use the spells and abilitys at our disposal.


ps. Sojero your saying that you would love to beable to run though and take 2 full rounds that amount to ~180k damage? well ask your local enchanter to cast a rune, or three, on you hey now you have ~100k in runes and 130k hps. enchanters have about the opposite 100k in hps and 130k in hps. just a though that you might like.

I'll let you look up the ranges on our pbaoe stuns and mezzes and see how that might not be a very effective idea.

They already do this.

Well, you can argue that this still applies to clerics, but that's a digression. Enchanters are designed for crowd control. If you're saying enchanters shouldn't be allowed to exercise this control, then the raid leader is far better off just bringing more wizards.

Please don't try to twist words, it does no one any good. I agree that Enchanters should be the BEST at CC, but not the only. Others have the ability, just not as good. This was done so that people are not stopped from doing stuff just because they cannot field a class. As to clerics, I have done raids with 1-2 clerics. The shamans and druids had to heal hard and show their A game, and they did, and even pallies helped as main healers. It can be done, not always pretty, but it can be.

Then why are you so opposed to having other classes having the ability to poorly tank? Should a group of 6 people with no pets and no tank classes not go out because they dont have one of the "needed tank classes"?


I run (ran?) OOM in about 2 min 30 seconds rune tanking judicator in POWar. Mana draw ups that to ~ 5 min. Full AA utlization makes that ~8 min. In this time I'm not doing (was doing?) ANYTHING else and utlizing a pet to hold agro. I did this because either the mage in group failed and I would rather keep the mob busy with my face than the mage not doing any DPS (dead mage = no mana = no DPS) or because the tanks died and they needed time to recover. To this point I have seen necros tank judicator in the same situations (or cause they like pet DPS) and do so better than enchanters.

What no rangers?

You laugh, I have made rangers heal their groups when I didn't have a shammy or druid in there to do it
Also made bst help too. You do what you can to get what you can done! they know me to be the raid leader that says "suck it up buttercup and walk it off!"

And no, if you cant bring out a merc tank, then that's a personal problem

heck with that many casters go to war and make 2 groups with mercs, I hear that's whats needed for named there

You're really out of your league here bud. I haven't tested anything but I declare it was BARELY nerfed...You're time in the military has nothing to do with it (Navy Crab here) the only thing embarrassing is that you feel the need to interject your opinions on things which you have no clue about.

i know, which is why i mentioned it you left them off your list.

leave it, he will come to understand the woes when he goes to try and play out his enchanter were he tries to use runes the way they were. If he doesn't then he wasn't using an enchanter to the full capablity that we are (where?) able to do. If this is the case then he lost nouthing and both of your views are correct as you lost something.

Vizier - you haven't tested anything, yet you claim to know what was effected? i'm sorry that seems wrong to me.

From pure numbers, the new chain cast time is now 12.6 seconds (server lag for the 1/10th second). It was 4.6 seconds. Mathmaticaly speaking for cast time, we lost ~ 63% effectivness for these spells, for coverage of the spells we lost ~9% for the single and ~4% for unity.

Why are you even bringing up exploiting? A couple of enchanters didn't die on the Judicator and it's an exploit? I saw a necro tank the thing for the group by life tapping, using the pet, fd, and a lot of other spells. I've seen rangers and even druids tank it. So we have ONE ability to keep us up, not do the damage the other people do under the same circumstances and it's an exploit?