Class Balance

Oh great, its the Bedavir thing all over again. Some a hole is just going to come in (probably a dev in disguise, and I'm definitely not talking about OP) to say how broken Chromatic Haze is. If it wasn't reported, hasn't been reported, then what's the problem? You melee folk too focused on yourselves for so long only to JUST realize what is causing the "imbalance."

then what's yours? "oh noes I'm melee and now casters are out parsing me because they made an ACTIVE role for enchanters to not be buff bots on events?"

frankly i love haze, it gives me a reason to DO on raids besides stand there and LOL at Sheex deaths every minute (i still do this mind you). Am I bit upset that it doesn't work 100% of the time as intended? Sure, I've made threads about it, but ill be dammed if I want it to change from it current form because whiny little ***** *** melee are complaining about being 'under powered' for at BEST 7 raids, when enchanters as a class have been under powered and have had jack to do on raids besides ~7 raids in the past 3 expansions! (TDS exempt) Heck it may even been further back than that.

Before Haze(TDS) enchanters were a dead class, you really couldn't find them being actively played. Now the developers have given a reason for enchanters to be PLAYED instead of being botted and this thread happens.

*/rant on
Well WHATS YOUR solution, cause I've read this entire thread and not seen ANYONE give a solution that hasn't been outright rejected because it goes outside 'the standard play style'

For that matter WHATS the dammed PROBLEM? spell it out for my apparently idiot self, cause i think Melee DPS, caster DPS, tanking, healing and support ALL need a 'Fix' but cause i'm a self center egotistical flaming **** like you im not going to say what about them NEEDS to be fixed!

*/rant off

Brogart, your enchanter's parse seems a bit off to me. the 900k + spikes are clearly where haze happened under IOG but the 400-500k during that time frame makes no sense to me. the entire parse you showed makes little sense to me as to what the enchanter is doing, since you have the log file can you look into what spells that enchanter was casting and inform?

The problem is there are a few ways to make something that should only have a small impact to a groups dps based on its tuning and proc % through out its creation and testing. To instead have a pretty big impact to burst and sustained by "gaming" the system so its up way more frequent then it was turned and set to. Throwing all casters numbers up even more then they should be.

Some are much more underhanded about this then others but even those who "might" not know are doing things in their normal routines that provide more procs then intended even if its to a much lessor degree then those truely "gaming" the system. Either way it appears to be working way more often then intended based on their tuning and its another large factor to consider with balancing dps levels between classes especially nuking dps compared to melee.

The parse looks 'as expected' to me when you piece it apart. The Enchanter was likely using Mindsunder and maybe Mindcleave or Polyrefractive. Almost every nuke cast was hazed which would account for the irregular casts. An Enchanter has nothing else to do on Vitio after initial debuffs so there is no other reasonable explanation IMO. It's a pretty horrible parse... what were they doing for almost the entire first minute? What has me stumped though is how there could be multiple 900k+ nukes. The only way to spike that high is with IOG + activated Haze. A proc'd haze doesn't have a large enough modifier to push the damage that high.

How do you have any clue what their "intended tuning" was/is? I mean... now you're even saying that it was broken before people knew it was broken. Please come back with your parses of a group w/ Haze and without. Otherwise, you're all talk with no substance. If you're going to ask for fixes/nerfs, at least have something better than your empirical evidence.

Are you really going to argue that a passive ability with like a 5-10% proc rate tuned around the cast, recast and global cast time of your spells and an activated ability with a single counter on a 10 minute recast leading to 2-3 procs a minute every 10 minute barring some major RNG love. Is equal to getting 3, 4, 5 or 6 procs every minute pretty regularly depending on what you are doing to "game" it?

Then factor in this is a group boost to nukes and try and see the issue at hand and how it adds to other established concerns.

I'm not arguing that at all. I'm arguing that you have no clue what you're talking about and are just making assumptions about the numbers game. You don't even know what the passive proc rate is or how much you can proc it otherwise. You also seem to have no desire to actually obtain any hard data and find crying 'nerf!' is sufficient. I commend your half-asserted effort though.

Nevermind the fact that it can actually make you do less damage than you should have if it actually critted.

Firstly Haze: I don't play an enchanter and I don't have a full grasp of the actual issues that people claim it has (only that many people do claim it), but I completely agree that it's good for enchanters to have a more active ADPS role and something to do when not doing CC. Great for them! Maybe it needs tuning, but the principle seems very sound and worth while.

As for the parse, no I'm not going to post my guilds raid logs publically. However I assure you it's not "a bit off". It's 100% genuine. Further more I picked the instance of that even where *I* had my best ever parse; I wasn't deliberately looking for one where an enchanter did their best ever parse, and quite likely this wasn't even it. I will say it's not just one enchanter that can parse highly too. Maybe it's a trick, or a bug, but when all said and done they're still under half the dps of the top caster on that event so I don't really see a big case for calling for nerfs.

Pointing out that I often get beaten by them on a parse is simply my way of indicating how far melee have slipped behind casters in TDS.

I agree that rogues are in a reasonable spot versus other pure-melee, but I happen to play a rogue so I'm using that as my benchmark to compare against. Seems reasonable. Obviously though when I say melee are in a poor way due to AC on bosses I mean more than just rogues. I also fully agree with you that Berserkers are suffering the most at the moment. However we're not meant to just be balanced vs other melee, but vs the game as a whole, which is why this thread was started ("So what happen to the class balance now casters are on top and melee barely breaking so when is this gonna be fixed?" incase you'd forgotten.)

As for CoTF parses - irrelevant. 1) The high parses are all due to assassination or decapitation. We didn't ask for this to have a huge level jump. 2) We're asking for balance on *current* content and not 1 year+ old content. Saying we're high dps in outdated raids is irrelevant IMO. Balance the current content and if it makes old countent out of whack then adjust the reason why (ie assassination).

Edit: I'd also add it isn't all TDS content that we suck on. Obviously some is just melee-sucky due to specific event mechanics, but even on straight up killing we're OK in some content. Specifically it is boss AC that generally causes us to hit for far lower than casters. I don't believe I received the memo that stated melee are for trash only.

Did this ever go live?

[41051] Chromatic Residue
Target: Target Group
Range: 200', AE Range: 500'
Resist: Unresistable
Trigger Spell DS: No
Casting: 0s, Recast: 1.5s
Duration: 2m (20 ticks), Dispelable: No, Allow Fast Regen: No
1: Stacking: Block new spell if slot 9 is 'Delayed Heal Marker' and < 10000
The haze clears but leaves a residue upon you preventing Chromatic Haze from affecting you for up to %z.

2 minutes seems pretty excessive if they were to put that in, but the concept isn't new. They did the same thing to sk mortal coil to attempt to prevent perma leech effect running.

Also...

One other point these simple parses overlook is the much higher risk of death and then penalty for death to a raid melee. That in of itself is maybe a bigger factor than many others discussed here, not to say they aren't important but, take a look at shield of fate and any comparative melee disc and the difference and use in practice is laughable.

So the average melee requires more adps, more healing on many events, has a higher risk of death, a higher penalty after dying, has substantially inferior raid survival tools (ignoring monk mend/impen/etc), and after all that the best case scenario is they parse similarly to their caster counterparts. Sounds right to me?

No it didn't. I said something before it even left Beta. Contrary to popular belief, they don't, in fact, do what I tell them.

10/2/2014

about an hour later

I was told to bring it mention it again later because the person wasn't there that day or was busy or something.

10/3/2014

Never got an answer

11/10/2014

And most recently, and Brogett can confirm this one since he was there:

3/16/2014

127 seconds into this fight, your 6 second dps is about 70k. 127 seconds into this exact same fight, we had a rogue with a 6 second average of 100k dps. His total average dps was 172k.

Comparing the graphs, your peaks are in the 420k range with two large spikes in the 600k range. His peaks are in the 600k range (with 1 large spike in the 800k range and 1 breaking 1 mil).

You're doing something wrong. Period.

I'm not a Rogue, I don't know what you're doing wrong, but it's plain to me that you are, which is why I said talk to another Rogue.

allow me to clarify a bit on why it seems 'a bit off'. Depending on when said enchanter activated IoG (2 minute buff) and twincast (20 casts) the various castings seem to be too randomized. I'm making the assumption that the enchanter in the shown parse was in a wizzy/mage group and activated IoG and other stuff at the ~50 second mark along with the activated haze.

I suppose, to try and be a bit clearer, it looks 'a bit off' to me due to the amount of 600k+ nukes every 4-5 seconds. The first bit (50-150 seconds) looks reasonable to me for IoG + TC other than the little 'mini nukes' that occur at the trail or leading edge of several points during the initial parts but exist once after the 'gap' at 84 seconds. Additionally i see two point in there where the enchanter could have use the twincast mez to enable the continued twincasting that is reflective in this.

Overall it just seems a bit off to me, but i deal with numbers all day for my job.

I don't believe there are two different Haze procs, Alla's, Lucy and EQresource all point to it being the same proc in the activated and the proced verson.[/quote]

This was added over a year and 1/2 ago when Gift of Hazy Thoughts didn't even exist. I really can't think of why they would have considered this. If it was added now it would completely negate the point of the passive AA. As it stands the proc rate for Hazy is between 4 - 7%.

If the parse you posted is accurate then talk to the Enchanters in your guild.

The issue is that it procs far too often. There are very few restrictions on what causes it to proc so Enchanters can effectively force procs to happen almost continuously if they know what they are doing.

[/quote]

I'm really confused how you - and I *believe* this is what Beimeith was saying - think that the proc'd version and the activated version are the same. There are multiple ranks of the activated AA. The proc definitely does not add the +375% modifier the max level activated AA adds. It uses the lower level rank that the original activated AA was on release. The proc is 340% and the activated max rank AA is 375%.

That said...

How does your post in beta have anything to do with the issue melee are bringing up in this thread? Yeah, you can get one 999k nuke every 10 minutes haze refreshes. You cannot get that from procs (based on your example posted - I don't know what the actual numbers are for your spells now but the point is you aren't getting 375% every time).

Therein lies the term "broken" that a lot of folks have been using. Also not to be confused with the "broken" function of it not working properly at times when it's on...semantics is fun!

You admit the proc rate is 4 -7% and claim to be an expert. I said 5-10% and then you claim I have no clue. Yes the 1-3% difference I had from not extensively testing out another classes passive ability completely discredits me and was so vast everything I am saying is complete hyperbole.

I'm pretty sure your the one who is clueless or so want to hold on to your new shiny toy that you stick your fingers in your ears while screaming so you can say you don't know anything to try and keep it.

Hard facts are there are ways to make something that is supposed to have very little uptime (based on a 10 minute recast of 1 counter for the activated version and a low proc rate on the passive one) that can instead be up a ton by proc'ing it various ways from things that completely negate the 4-7% intended rate. Most people can care less what it does for enchanters individually but instead for balance for actual dps classes. This totally ignores the fact that myself and probably many others didnt even realize exactly how the effect worked for nukes as Beimeith has pointed out. Expecting it to be a decent bonus over normal nuke mods of 200-250% not something that turns 300K crits into 900K hits.

Even despite all this it still is just a part of multiple issues that people are sorta claiming are singular issues between archtypes causing imbalance.

I said no such thing. Given I can actually proc the ability and use the AA though, fairly certain I may know more about it then you.

I could care less if they address the issue. If I was soooo concerned about it I would have shut my mouth in this thread on page 1. It's not going to change how I play my character on a normal basis just like before the AA was added. The DPS casters are going to be the ones complaining. My job will still be the same. But sure... I'm clueless

Except that is completely wrong. Try again though.

Just had 5 of 15 procs fail - proc Chromatic Haze buff, nuke, and lands for normal damage and no crit. There weren't even any other damage procs/abilities running that could potentially eat it. The charge is just eaten by the universe. That may have just been a very unlucky string with the RNG but it happens often enough.

So yeah... if they fix the broken function, they need to fix the broken function. Of course every Enchanter has already pointed out that bug since forever. It's nice to ignore things like that though if you're making an argument to nerf it.

So this leads to the next question, given almost certainly the devs know about this. Is it deliberate, or at least an accident they wish to keep?

Enchanters wanted (IMO needed) a more active ADPS roll. Ideally this would be a short duration thing (like beastlord Ruaabri's Fury) or some of the shaman/bard things, but there could be a lesser sustained roll (like other shaman/bard things). So perhaps it's good for the game. I don't know how big a boost int casters now get from group ADPS compared to melee.

On the flip side, if it's a bug and the devs want it fixed, then they should come out and say so in order to cut through threads like this one. Well, say so AND fix it, unlike the say so and not fix it that happened with berserker/rogue area effect damage (which believe it or not I do want fixed!).