Class Balance

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Povarmonk, Apr 1, 2015.

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  1. Brogett Augur

    Actually yes I take it back, however it's odd. I've observed this too, and yet on a SHORT burn I'm competitive. Perhaps it's just because casters suffer on some mobs too, or maybe it's simply that our burst multipliers are too high. Whatever, I absolutely CANNOT be competitive on Captain Tita, not even remotely close. So there is high AC and then ludicrously high AC :(

    I get the feeling that the devs looked at high burst from berserkers and rogues and decided that reducing the high burst by AC mitigation was the solution. Sure it brings down our burst, but it also totally wrecks our sustained. :-(

    I so wish we burnt in 92 sec! Tonight we had a woefully low turnout of just 41 players in zone (including some alts and several guest raiders). Mostly we're well above that, but low turnout => low dps => sloooow kill. (Infact we wiped after 8 minutes and just 3% health left, grr.)

    Fundamentally, the game is broken by design. Fixing AC is the starting point as IMO it was completely the wrong solution, but something else needs to change too. Some graphs to demonstrate my dps on this looong slow fail:

    [IMG]

    Compared to the top caster of the night, a wiz:

    [IMG]
    What's astoundingly obvious is the smoothness of wiz vs the extreme spikiness of rog (me). This isn't just *me* - it's me + shaman + bard + beastlord all synched up with stacking short duration multipliers.

    If you're trying to balance this so wiz and rog (and ber) are all competitive when you have 92sec parses to 450 sec parses, well, good luck! It's just not possible.

    Perhaps what we need to face up to is that the things that need nerfing are shaman, beastlord, rogue, berserker, (etc) abilities that make my DPS vary from 200k burn at one point to a miserable ~20k at the end after all discs and ADPS have gone. Giving "boosts" every expansion where the multiplier is now even higher than before yields bigger and bigger gaps between the "under disc + ADPS mods" and "not-discing", exarcerbating the issue. It makes us more and more burst-only classes where we're either overpowered in short duration fights or underpowered on absolutely everything else.

    Boosting AC enormously isn't going to fix this. It's just burying your head in the sand. Instead there needs to be ways to bring up the sustained non-disc dps in a way that isn't multiplied up so the dps of melee is smoother. A stacked up 10x multiplier always leaves someone broken somewhere.

    PS. Yes, I brought up this very issue several years ago, posting much the same graphs directly to the devs. Back then it was maybe 6-7x gap between peak and troughs. It'll only get worse unless the problem is tackled head on.
  2. Insanekitty Lorekeeper

    I cant disagree with you except we add a little Adps for the other melee classes , You would figure by now they would just halt the dropping of melee gear. Back in the day they had class only weapons so that you could maximize dps and control it based on that ... Remember the 1.0 ? or the 1.5 2.0 2.5 . ya those where the days ... except many ignored the 1.0 and just went to TOV for a weapon because it took me 11 months just to get my 2 dragon books . DAMN talisman tried to intervene for their pally but he passed the vox book to me after waiting 11 months .. on a 7 day respawn dragon ... oh hi dragon from kunark that took 150 ppl to kill. A little too late imo.


    But yes zerkers are hurting so are other melee , I cant disregard that at all . The AC on the mobs is high , Tanks dropping like flies causing domino effects is just the joy of my day being the first domino in line after the tank.



    IK was here
  3. Insanekitty Lorekeeper


    Hey Brogett, I cant disagree with the graphs other than , the composition of the groups of them and the RNG factor that you cant possibly account for.

    ADPS has been the hallmark of every zerker nerf from the get go , if you could go back and look at all the comments I made ages back over the course of many many a year and everything being ignored.

    On another note The Devs Blamed ADPS for being the issues of the problems and sent nerfs to every class that was effected by them. zerkers at first since we were ruling the charts for a while , 2 expansions specificly , we came in line with rogues and certain stylish monks were excellent in solteris and on par but the casters were far behind but keep in mind the fights were shorter , and Pet push was virtually eliminated if u can recall those days . I remember when we had melee encircling the boss so it didn't MOVE AROUND and push through walls which made things way easier . Now we just put things in corners and pets knock things around like ping pong balls which make 2 of my abilities virtually useless , in the past I could use battle leap to reposition being rooted and blind . but no more


    IK was here
  4. RoguesOwn Lorekeeper

    At this point they are going to have to "nerf" caster dmg unless we want to dive deeper into the WOWish big number abyss. DMG and DPS has gone completely off the deep end. I called it back when SOD dropped and we saw DPS increase 2 - 3 fold. Remember the crying we all did about Druid/Ranger Summer Line and Twincast. Remember when Druids were beating melee in parses that first 2 weeks.

    We are an old game with mudflation now taking the wheel in all and every game decision. But the windowlickers are like "OHHH A SHINEY...OHH BIG NUMBERS..I AM L33T". It has taken us to a point of no return and to the current state we are in now. If they had just re evaluated the calculations 7 years ago we might of had a better sense of "balance". But they just keeping adding lipstick to the Pig o DMG and you have 1 million dmg spells and 425k BS and 800k Kicks and our poor Berserkers being marginalized for no good reason.

    Can they fix it? Sure but there would be a lot of QQ'ing. But for the health of the game it needs to be done.
  5. guado Augur

    As you wish,
    [IMG]
    Those are monk weps bt dubs.
    Kiillz, Axxius, Silentchaos and 7 others like this.
  6. Kellaer Augur

    I find the Mario Bros graphs to be really insightful information, thank you.

    IK was here
    Sancus and Silv like this.
  7. Silv Augur

    Bump melee up now and then just screw everyone over equally next expansion; no one class can complain they were nerfed then.:)
  8. Insanekitty Lorekeeper


    The Real Sad truth is this ... is it worth it in the budget to fix a problem for a population so minute that it leaves no real impact in the overall view of the game. Realistically and fiscally NO it makes absolute no sense , You take care of the classes that are the most played and go from there. But from a Customer Satisfaction standpoint. You have to treat everyone equally. Let me see if you can choose which path they are taking and have taken over the course of 3 yrs lets say
  9. Insanekitty Lorekeeper


    Luigi can throw fireballs too u know! MUHAHAHAH hes part caster .. see wuh a did ther.



    IK was here

    Oh btw ever take the time to look at the stats on a berserker axe at level 105 .. im sure you will enjoy the lack of stats heroic stats ability to not have to summon countless amounts of them and at the cost of 3k pp a stack of 100 , oh did I mention it uses axes on every ability now. WTB infinite AA for axes like the arrows have. hell we use them more
  10. RoguesOwn Lorekeeper

    I know it is a lost cause at this point. SOE had no forsight when EQ was still popular to retool/relaunch their code to make it more manageable. I think SOE at the time kept thinking EQ was a fad which is why they ventured into their portfolio of fail start ups. But here we are 16 years later still trucking along.
  11. Slasher Augur


    Axes are only used on Demolishing Axe Throw nothing else. Years ago they made volley use axes but quickly changed that.
  12. Behelit Augur

    I'm pretty sure Frenzy/Backstab/Flying Kick are NOT subject to the AC check/mitigation that our autoattacks are going through as such because less of your dps is autoattack based it doesnt have the impact on Rogues/Monks that it does on Zerkers. If you happen to have some Backstab data from CotF targets to compare against you're Vitio numbers. I know Frenzy is the same on both targets but that could just be because Frenzy is all +flat dmg and has a small hit range.
  13. Insanekitty Lorekeeper



    well I go through roughly 1500 axes on arx 3 , so explain that one to me because I cant.

    can anyone say broken? , im sure we call can at this point

    IK was here
  14. Insanekitty Lorekeeper


    Frenzy has a smaller hit range than melee range just fyi!


    IK was here
  15. Insanekitty Lorekeeper

    If all things were equal we could balance dps by taking each individual class and have them target a dummy and swing and setup a program to use standard class abilities constantly and test the benefits .

    end result a value

    take that value and multiply it with the potential AA effects etc and you get a


    hypothetical value based on RNG

    . Unfortunatly we have Adps and ... OMG DONT SAY IT >> BUFFS

    so not only does the first value go out the window but what if u had all the right buffs ....

    are casters so dependent on the same buff dependencies like haste for melee and atk and and and and and for heroic stats etc etc etc ... not to mention the buffs also provide survivability due to aoes ramp etc. ..

    That's the challenge that's before the devs

    OH AND I HAVE TO THANK MY CLERICS .. specificly one that gives me DI for survival .. it helps


    IK WAS HERE
  16. Behelit Augur

    Ya thats why I asked Brogett to check his Backstab to see if it correlates the theory that only autoattack is being mitigated, explaining why Rogues can still be somewhat competitive on short burst where Frenzied Stabbing is contributing heavily.

    Also you can edit your posts for up to 30min, really no need to spam post like that FYI
  17. Insanekitty Lorekeeper

    this is what the casters are listening to

  18. RadarX Augur

    This has been a rollercoaster of insults and drama with little constructive discussion so we're going to go ahead and close it. Please review the forum guidelines to ensure you are aware of our posting requirements.
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