Bans, Boxers, 3rd party programs, and EQ

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Quoted for truth.

In a multi-player game, cheating is an advantage non-cheaters don't have.
That's like saying Lance Armstrong wasn't hurting anyone in any way.
What about all the people finishing 2nd that probably lost millions of dollars in endorsements when they should have won?

Admittedly most EQ cheaters would struggle with a tricycle.

umm, you may want to confirm there were no other cheaters during the time Lance Armstrong was racing in the Tour De France. You will find that of all of the top 3 finishers during the years that Lance Armstrong was racing all were involved with cheating except for 1 person. Check and validate it, fact check it. I already have. People that involve Lance Armstrong into discussions about cheating should at least do their due-diligence and confirm that no one else cheated otherwise you do a discredit to yourself and to anyone that knows what really happened. Lance Armstrong definitely cheated but so did most of the others that raced during that time. see: https://www.businessinsider.com/lance-armstrong-doping-tour-de-france-2015-1

This is why everyone that uses automation should be punished. Not just the ones that people think are bad.

iirc for one of the races where they invalidated Lance's win they had to give the gold to like the 23rd place because that was the highest placer who didn't cheat in some way or another.

Clarify for me, did the gold go to a cheater?

Honestly, it probably went to someone who cheated in some form or another at some point in their career. High level cycling (or weight lifting, or a ton of other physical activities) basically require you having done some of that at some point. It's a poor analogy for EQ.

"Well the 23rd place cyclist in the Tour de France probably cheated at some point in their life, because everyone cheats at one time or another."

The lack of self awareness in this thread is astounding.

Except that it isn't as black and white as you claim.

Notice this sentence in the post about cheating. It is pretty vague, and intentionally so. It means that DPG can change their stance on things like another 3rd party software that is, as of right now, allowed (though some of those users were caught in the suspend waves), keyboards that automate button pushing, software that automates button pushing/mouse clicking, etc. They can suspend/ban anyone for even perceived cheating if that person gets reported. It gives them a pretty broad brush to paint with and leaves the community still debating what constitutes cheating and what doesn't.

Except that it is as black and white.

You do not need any third party programs to play Everquest. You do not need gamparse, magelo, GINA, discord, teamspeak, ventrilo, is boxer, em kue too, none of it. You also don't need that fancy Nancy keyboard where you hit one button and it does 1000 programmed clicks, or that Roomba mouse that moves on its own.

You nerd to download EQ and then play. And if you are concerned about bans and suspensions, you don't get any third party program and put it on your computer. I am 100% confident that players who have never installed one of the third party programs listed have ever been banned for automation.

You are right, you don't need any of those things to play. But I am going to come right out and say that I use some of those things because of my disability (and if DPG decides to suspend me for admitting it, so be it). So, live in your black and white world, but there is plenty of grey in between that you choose to ignore.

This comment only applies to PvP. To talk about advantages in a PvE context is silly.

I don't choose to ignore it. I currently use third party programs in EQ. GINA, discord, magelo being the three. And at some point I want to reinstall gamparse. And I am well aware that if DPG comes out tomorrow and says that GINA is no longer allowed and players who have used GINA in the previous two years will be banned, then I will be banned. There is no gray about that at all.

Cheating is black and white. I don't know how else to say it. And if you use any third party program or technology not authorized by EQ, you run the risk of suspension and bans. EQ, for now, has said programs like GINA and gamparse are allowed because they don't automate characters and control them- they just read text lines and output results. But it is their world, and they have every right to change their mind and punish those who do not play the way they intended in their world.

So, you are just reaffirming that the statement in their Anti-cheat post is a broad brush that they can use to deem any 3rd party program/device as a cheat. That leaves a lot of stuff in question, including 3rd party programs you use, hence these discussions on ForumQuest about what is and is not cheating. Thank you.

There are plenty of posts in the TLP section of the forums with arguments supporting the fact that it hurts more in a PvE context when players can't do anything to stop the cheaters from locking down camps and selling the drops.

And players are being suspended for using third party programs that allow automation of characters. And if you choose to use one of those programs, whether it be for good or bad or you don't use the automation part, you run the risk of suspension and ban.

Why is this such a challenging and difficult concept?

As soon as they name a program that is banned someone will release a new program with a different name that does the same thing. Or if they name a program that is allowed someone will modify it so that it does things that are not allowed. By just listing what things are and are not allowed it doesn't matter what the program that does it is called you know if what you are doing is legal or not.

EQ is not a competitive game.
Comparing EQ with a high level sport seems irrelevant.
There might be some competition in raid guilds as for who is doing the bests in parse.
But i don’t believe any automation tools would give a meaningful advantage compared to an experienced player.
As for black and white, i feel that leveraging on automation gives you access to a different game.
It is mostly a different approach of playing EQ.

They just update the list, it’s so simple. Even the Flintstones updated their stone tablets.

It isn't challenging or difficult. You pretty much described grey areas when you mentioned that DPG could suspend/ban people for using any 3rd party software/device. That is a grey area. Those that are getting the hammer now, for the most part, are automating, but there are others that use ISB (approved so far) that have gotten the hammer as well. DPG left the door open to suspend/ban on anything they see fit, a concept you seem to be finding difficult.

Making it so it is a never ending task of updating the list isn't a solution as it could take time to discover and add each new change the the list. If that happens you could have people who are using programs that are not on the list get in trouble but you never have the issue if you just list behaviors that are bad as that covers the action regardless of the program doing it.