Bans, Boxers, 3rd party programs, and EQ

Let me start off by saying I'm not really a boxer. I don't use addons because I'm a techo-illiterate who is scared of anything not approved by my Director of IT (read husband) who considers third party gaming programs to be too risky (he doesn't allow ESO add-ons either and they allow them).

EQ is 23 years old. Most MMOs have a functional life expectancy of a couple years at best, but EQ has continued to survive. Not despite boxers, but because of them. Without people willing to pay for 6 or 12 or 18 accounts people like me and most of the folks who come to these forums whining about boxers could NOT keep EQ alive.

Like any other player you have good and bad boxers. And, for the record, I can cite for you literally hundreds of instances over the years where my experience with "bad apple" players hasn't involved an EQ boxer, but a single player who just happened to be a total jerk. I'm not saying all boxers are good, I've met my share of [insert bad word here] boxers too. But I've seen far more solo jerks than I have boxers.

The problem isn't the boxers, without whom EQ would have crapped out a decade ago, but with bad people (boxer or not). Back in the day there was something called the PNP (Play Nice Policy). That was a good thing that kept EQ a good game. Bad boxers (the ones who use game breaking hacks, the ones people complain perma-camp essential mobs, whose groups train over others, etc...oh wait, I've seen plenty of non-boxers do ALL of that too!!!) would be caught and weeded out by reimplementation and enforcement of the old PNP. Good boxers wouldn't be impacted and would continue to largely subsidize the game we love.

In the past month or so several friends and people in my guilds have been banned for 7 days (the old standard was 3 for a first offense) and all but one of them didn't receive an email at all, the one who did received a form letter that was so generic as to be useless. In every case these were people who did not to my knowledge use game breaking hacks (warps, speed hacks, etc.), who were scrupulously careful not to be the village jerk, and who would drop everything to help anyone (guildie or not) who asked. Now tell me, please, how is someone like that detrimental to EQ?

Were they "cheating"? Yes, but they weren't breaking the game or hurting anyone in any way. I play on a couple of the Progression servers and can tell you that boxers are a beneficial and much needed feature to keep those servers going and to keep people like me playing. And honestly, by the draconian standards mentioned in the post I'm linking, anyone who uses a G13 (darn Logitech for stopping making them because even without using them to automate, just use as an additional "mouse" or in my case to emulate a 10 keypad because I use my right hand on the real mouse) is also cheating. And, as I've said before, I know a lot of solo players who make use of their Razor keyboards, G13s (or whatever flavor they choose) far more flagrantly than most boxers I know use other softwares to allow them to play multiple toons. Additionally, regarding "cheating" by using 3rd party products, it has been common knowledge among non-boxers as well as boxers for the past decade SOE/Daybreak/Darkpaw staff has been telling boxers on the downlow that programs like the "light" version of [He who must not be named] are "ok" as long as certain functions aren't used such as, what players call "magic maps", full on open world AFK farming, and some other things. (yes, I'm techno illiterate, but I do have ears and I'm not stupid!)

There are those who complain incessantly about boxers and use some rather nasty generalizations and stereotypes to describe them (making me wonder if those folks are as intolerant of people not like them in real life). One of the biggest complaints is that Boxers make it so they can't get groups. Over the years I've made friends with several boxers because they OFFERED to help me with a quest because I was solo, or were willing to drop a box if I needed a group. All I had to do was ask. Most of the boxers in my guilds are like that and they make the game so much more enjoyable for their kindness. Attitude has more to do with grouping opportunities or their limitations than Boxers do, they're just an easy scapegoat and an easier excuse.

As I said, there are bad boxers as well, and for those I don't support a 7 day suspension, but perma-banning. Bad apples, boxers or solo, don't belong in the EQ world, but good players who show courtesy and kindness to other players are an asset that EQ can ill afford to squander.

It's simple economics. For every boxer who is driven away from EQ, Darkpaw has to find anywhere from 3-24 new players to backfill the loss or increase subscription costs and/or downsize staff to compensate. For those boxers who are a true detriment to the community it's a price we have to pay, but for those who aren't a detriment Darkpaw (and non-boxers) are only shooting ourselves in the foot (or as Grandma used to say "cutting of [our] nose to spite our face.")

Finally, as promised, the link to what constitutes cheating.

What Constitutes as Cheating? | EverQuest Forums (daybreakgames.com)
The final paragraph here is a bit concerning. "Lastly, we will not publicly list specific names of approved third-party programs and software as we cannot guarantee that those programs will remain approved in the future."

Excuse me? That's like the DMV telling you "we expect you to follow the law, but we're not going to tell you whether certain cars or modifications to your car have been deemed illegal or not, you'll just have to find out when you're arrested."

And that's the biggest reason that I wrote this post. I don't like the "government" telling people that they can or can't do something then saying we're not going to tell you what's ok and what's not. It's a principle of justice and in the face of Devs/staff telling people on the sly that some things are ok for a decade then changing the rules without some rather specific clarification it's injustice when people are blindsided with suspensions and ones that are much harsher than in the past.

Are you trying to kill the game? Because there's another thread of people saying they're done, and for every one that posts there are probably 10 or so who are just quietly posting their good-byes on their guild's forums and unsubscribing, stopping buying kronos, etc. I love EQ and I like playing with real groups, but I realize that without boxers this game would have gone the way of Conan, Vanguard, Warhammer and any number of other dead games.

We don't need duplicate threads on the same subject. The back-and-forth vitriol (among all sides) will likely require new forum rules regarding discussion of 3rd party software at this point.

What Constitutes as Cheating?

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/what-constitutes-as-cheating.281242/

Darkpaw will refuse to name approved or unapproved software because software capabilities can change over time (re-coded). They also do not want some binding technicality to prevent enforcement. It is more analogous to the jurisprudence on indecency: you know it when you see it.

You may not need duplicate threads, but Darkpaw does NEED to listen to their players concerns or they will find themselves without alot of players.

I posted this because it *is* a hot topic in game and because there are those who dominate the forums with their views giving Darkpaw a highly skewed view of in game issues. And as a non-boxer my view, which recognizes the value that most boxers bring to the game, is an important perspective that needs to be shared and to provide a place for other non-boxers who don't fanatically hate boxers a place to chime in.

PS. I'm also an EQ player since 2001 Lots of us moldy oldies around.

PSS. You might note from my blinding wall of text and drasty eloquence that I'm not just some snot nosed "I pwnt u" kiddie. As someone with more real world years of experience than I would care to admit (particularly in business administration and marketing) my input just may possibly have a tiny bit of value.

Things may change???!

I'm pretty sure that we don't live in the horse and buggy days anymore. Every day I get updated terms of service from my bank, credit cards, doctors, various softwares, and even online games. I'm pretty sure that it's not a matter of months for the Pony Express to deliver changes and updates to the player base (although it often feels like it on patch day!), particularly when we get them in the loading screen.

Cheyana I feel you and I truly beleive a lot of players agree with you despite what some on this forum post. I feel that DPG/DBG or whatever they are calling themselves these days have been heavy handed at best. At worst they have intentionally cost themselves a ton of revenue without solving core underlying issues and problems that could spell the end of Everquest as we know it. Im saddend by this new spur of what they see as "Taking on the cheaters" and wish they were not just trying to appease the vocal minority.

Case closed. You sure typed out a lot of stuff to try to justify people playing unfairly and against the rules. Suffering the consequences of one's actions is a part of life.

There are speed limits on roads and for good reason. We all collectively agree that the speed limit represents "the rules" and yet we don't expect or even want the cops to pull over every single person breaking this rule. Rather, the rule exists so that law enforcement can apply their discretion when somebody breaks the rule in some egregious manner. People cruising safely at 75 should not have the book thrown at them in the same way as a bozo going 100mph and zigzagging through traffic.

That's true. In your example it is up to the cop's discretion but 'technically' the cop 'could' pull everyone over and ticket all of them. That is not as valid an argument as you want it to be.
Just because DPG isn't hitting everyone for everything all the time doesn't make the action they do take any less justified.
A terrible defense would be, "I'm not cheating nearly as blatantly as that person over there is".
Cheating is cheating, regardless.

hehe company's do this thing call blanket protection, they vaguely say what they don't want you to do so when / if they want to enforce things they can. being an MMO there is not a whole lot of things that could actually be considered as cheating. its not like your playing an FPS game and having your single playing toon aim for you. having multiple toons doing 85% of what a full player can do isn't even remotely close to cheating.

but if having 6 toons do 125%-150% of what the 1 player can do one 1 toon ehh.. that's something to wonder about.

Absolutely true. Those who automate, do so knowing it to be a risk. Those of us who speed risk getting a ticket. That said, we can have a fair debate about where a reasonable line of enforcement should be. It's not helpful to point at a rule and say "cased closed", particularly if we don't find it to be a good rule.

I bet you a million dollars that they didn't have a GM physically watch every suspended player. If they had the funding to pay for GMs whose entire job was to roam servers looking for botters / afk cheaters I suspect the problem wouldn't exist.

Players and investors faced with a choice between the game / game studio that embraces cheating and the game / game studio that limits cheating and its impacts on the players will generally choose the later. I'm glad to see recent efforts to protect the future of EQ.

I keep saying this, but you will never change the stance of a Anti-M*Q*2 player and you will never change the stance of someone that uses it. There isn't a good form of communication that has any real impact because of this.

People keep saying that there should be a server where this is allowed. I am not a fan of another prison server (referencing FV). EQ2 also has a server where its the wild west, and they get no CS support. I enjoy playing the game with real people, but also don't always have the time to form up groups. Creating a server where M*Q*2 is allowed just alienates the communities even more.

I still play, but i play FTP toons. i used the survey you get when you unsubscribe as another way to discuss my displeasure.

That's some terrible logic. So-called cheating is nothing more than an actively engaged modding community in other games. We only call it cheating here because DPG uses it as a catch-all to ban whomever they like. Banning the most engaged players of the game who provide the largest number of subbed accounts is not an act that protects the future of EQ. Those applauding these bans will soon be calling for more and more server merges as they turn into ghost towns one by one.

The problem is people started abusing the program and there are more AFK players online than actual players. When no one has to ever log off, it makes it difficult to find open camps.

problem is, if they had a GM doing that from 2000 until now. the game would not be where it is today.. this i can 100% guarantee, think of this.. 1 person plays 6+ toons and how many boxers do you know on your server, i know of at least 7.. so if all 7boxers quit with their toons you gonna be able to get people to replace the $629.58 that was just lost from them 7 players

So your rationale is to just let the cheaters cheat for the good of the game?

Why this is true. I feel that eq is doing it wrong. instead of just flat out bands/x number of day breaks. do the old if you can't beat them join them. Come up with something even if it cost extra as a perk that dose the same thing as the unnamed programs. This will deal with some issues.

1st. they can limit what can and can't be done.
2nd it bring in some more cash as I would guess lots who do this would rather use approved by the derv then a non approved one.
3rd to make the 3 party people happen can make it like UI we can have custom UI(no supported by the dervs) can let people import custom files for this perk.

4 make it know if you use this your save if you use anything else your gone.

Not exactly. I prefer a more nuanced approach that would basically bring back the Play Nice Policy and ban people based on anti-social behaviors like AFK play, camp monopolization for extended periods, killstealing, etc. My approach would be a consideration of the greatest good for the greatest number, not something like automation itself.

depends on what they are doing. if they are playing their toon within the mechanic's of the game (doing only what the char is allowed to do) then they are not cheating. the thing that people don't like is that 1 person can play more toons and get done what they want when they want and how they want with out help based on the time they have to play..

those that are AFK botting, being Toxic, camp hording are the ones that need to go

So what do either of you think 'should' be allowed, for all to use, that EQ doesn't offer natively that questionable 3rd-party programs do?