GRR...! PvP Server Option for Firiona Vie

Hypothetical with the ability to switch back and forth from PvP enabled to not enabled:
Buff up with 2 hour buffs from PvE, switch to PvP, with buffs more difficult to obtain in PvP because of the limited number of PvPers giving a advantage to the one who switched back and forth.

Sure, every PvPer could do the same and that might be the exact reason they would want to be able to switch back and forth.

Until they get dispelled.

That's a lot of dispells!

This really isn't a problem as there won't be many people switching from PvE to PvP in the first place even if they do give us the option to freely switch between the two. If it becomes a problem they could start with adding a cooldown to limit how frequently you can switch between the two modes before worrying about buff stripping.

I, too, think it would be a very very very limited audience, less than those who might use personnas, so I really don't think it would ever be implemented in any way. But the PvP proponents keep throwing up reasons why they cannot use the currently available PvP options or why a switch wouldn't work because of buffs and other nonsense. The numbers of who would use a PvP <> PvE switch would likely, at most, double the number of characters that currently use the PvE > PvP permanent switch no matter if mercs and buffs were restricted in ways they claim were the death knell to PvP.

I don't see a reason to strip buffs from a person switching from PvE to PvP just because they add a method to switch back. There is no difference between keeping buffs and just swapping over some buff bots to buff before going to PvP.

It's called being spiteful.

If you go back in the thread, you will see my "suggestion" was a response to someone who was claiming the ability to switch back and forth was an issue because of PvE buffs. So, I actually agree with you and I also think there is a snowball's chance in a bibilically hot location of there ever being a switcher but if there is one, the PvE buffs would be another excuse by the PvPers why any options for PvP short of forcing those who choose not to PvP into PvP is unacceptable.

Let me repeat again. I don't think there will be any development done for a feature that a demonstrably extremely small minority would want no matter how many times the very tiny vocal proponents claim there is a hypothetical large number just waiting for the "right" changes/additions when they can't even agree with each other on what they want AND refuse to use any current options in any way shape or form just to show the potential participatory numbers while also claiming how the current options do not exist because they aren't the option they want.

I'll reconstruct this thread "Point by Point," once my "Forums Ban" is completed on the 26th for "Anti-Trolling" behavior.... lol
Though I do understand and appreciate the Moderator's decision and effort regarding the "Thread." Many Thanks to Angeliana...!

And I am saying that it isn't an issue at all that someone is just trying to create justification to shoot down the idea.

They either need to add a way to switch from PvP back to PvE or remove the ability to switch to PvP so people don't make that mistake and not be able to fix it.

In the aughts, the Book of Discord was in the character inventory when a new character was created. Sometime after SoL or maybe even after PoP, it was changed to require talking to the Priest of Discord first to get the book in order to be able to hand it in and even have an extra box you have to accept. That was the method introduced to reduce players making the "mistake [of enabling PvP] and not be able to fix it", i.e. it had to be a deliberate act in order to both request the book and then hand it in while still giving the option to do so for those who wished to have a PvP enabled character (or just one with an uncommon different colour for the name which, I am sure, is the reason the player who does the lottery turns that character's name red). The one and only missing bit of information is that the change is permanent which probably should be in the dialogue, the book text, and the accept/decline box after handing it in. But, you do have to go through a few steps in order to turn the character PvP (or "player kill" and "pkill" as it is phrased by the process) that it is highly unlikely to be done purely by accident.

Just because a player has to talk to a priest of discord to get the book and turn it in to enable PvP doesn't mean that they know it can't be reversed without help from a GM. The problem isn't that it is or isn't a deliberate act but the fact that it can't be undone and not everyone knows that fact. As it stands now almost no one bothers to enable PvP with this method and a major factor in that is because it can't be reverted. This could be solved by creating a method to switch from PvP back to PvE which would also eliminate the need for any GM support to help people who have switched. If that can't be done it would be best to just remove the ability to flag for PvP on a PvE server from the game.

Lecturing one who mostly agrees with you on this is not exactly a good policy. I don't agree that they should remove the current PvP options. That would just fuel the "there is no PvP-mode" claims.

I do agree, and said as much, that they should have specific wording indicating it is a permanent change when the change is made. That should have been a complaint back in the aughts and in the years between. You have made proud declarations about how long you have been in the game and on each version of the forums, were you making that specific complaint at any time before this thread?

However, I also think that particular ship sailed YEARS ago. With as few new players the game now garners (and even the most optimistic would have to admit that is a very small number in comparison to even a decade ago), how many players don't know it's not a permanent change? Over the previous 20+ years since the book was removed from the starting inventory, how many players have enabled it and then wanted it removed? If it was a frequent customer service issue, they likely would have added another layer of confirmation, such as the need to enter the character name when deleting a character (if I remember rightly that wasn't added until after EQ2 was launched), or simply just text indicating the permanence. But, there are more safeguards and specific cautionary text about other features than enabling PvP so they likely haven't had much cs need to make it more clear. Even the claims window has been made more clear regarding the permanence of choices there.

But, it was noted that the prohibition on PvPers getting buffs from PvEers was due to balance. So, if there were to be a switch added to revert to PvE from PvP (after 25 years of not needing it and with a minuscule PvP audience), the only way to retain that same balance would be to have buffs stripped on the switch, like they are for personas, and have it only be possible in specific zones, like it is currently for personas. But, whether that would be "reasonable" would likely fall in the same arguments on whether both of those are reasonable for personas.

And now I wonder, in a philosophical way, if it would be possible to have a single persona be PvP enabled with the others, including the original, being PvE. It wouldn't be able to be the same class as any of the other personas, due to that feature's limitations, but it might be an interesting "work around" for someone who wants to oscillate between PvP and PvE.

However, as has been noted by others, the only real reason someone would want to go from being PvP to PvE would be to be able to hide from fellow PvPers and prevent themselves from being attacked while doing PvE content and/or to not be limited to doing PvE content with fellow PvPers. Both of those are likely why the devs of old didn't see the need to have a way to oscillate.

As a note, I have participated in consensual PvP that had a cover/overt flagging system in SWG. While there were ways to grief that system and I was accidentally flagged overt a couple times (and even thrown out of my own workshop/sales building) when I wasn't intending to do anything with PvP, I thought the system had good bones. You had to do faction type work to be flagged in the PvP system. While doing the faction tasks you were overt and could be attacked. You had a specific cool down time that needed to be spent online, in the game, limited in where you could go, before you could switch to covert when both your PvP faction status and your ability to be attacked would be hidden, displaying as if you were not with either faction. You couldn't be directly attacked while covert or while no faction, but if you buffed or traded with someone overt or in a stage of covert (my memory is a little fuzzy after 20-something years) you would be flagged overt (this is where there was an ability to grief someone unsuspecting, or to have accidental overting). I built my faction up with one side for RP reasons and then, for other RP reasons, switched sides and worked up the other. So, I am not against consensual PvP, I'm not even against a means to switch from PvP <> PvE (but think it is unlikely to ever be added to EQ), I choose not to participate in PvP in EQ, and I am dead-set against being forced to participate in PvP in any game.

That is what you seem to be doing with your idea that switching from PvE to PvP with buffs is going to cause all sort of issues. Also I am not arguing that it should be removed, just that they need to add a method of switching back to PvE and only disable it if they do not want to add that method.

There is no reason that it should be permanent and there should be a way to switch back. If someone does make the switch it makes the game pretty much unplayable.

It doesn't matter how many know that it is permanent or not as there are still players who don't know. And the fact that it is permanent means that no one that knows that fact is ever going to use the system. It either needs to be changed to allow people to switch back or remove it.

What balance issues? Players will PvP with buffs regardless of them getting them while flagged for PvE or PvP not to mention one of the tactics of PvP is to strip buffs to make things easier. The fact that someone could get buffed, switch to PvP, and travel to a zone to actually PvP isn't a balance issue. That is no different then switching to PvP along with buff bots and buffing up after the switch it just makes it more annoying to switch.

The reason you lose buffs when you switch personas is because you are switching to a different character with the same name and not just enabling or disabling a PvP flag.

If you switch one persona to PvP they would all be switched to PvP because personas share flags

Or they just don't want to PvP all the time and other times want to enjoy a different style of game. There is a reason that WoW got rid of all the PvP servers and changed it to a flag that works on any server. It is just a matter of turning on the flag in a few locations or turning it off anywhere in the game without the need to remove buffs or the like.

If you are talking about the devs when they designed the game they had a lot of ideas about how things should work that have been removed from the game because they didn't really work out.

While there may or may not be ways to grief the ability to use a priest of discord/order to enable/disable PvP it is unlikely that keeping buffs when switching to PvP is going to be one of them. If someone really needs buffs to PvP they will still be able to get them after the switch and they will run into issues when others dispel them.

One of the issues remains is the fact that players can switch to PvP with no means to switch back and it makes in pretty much impossible to group with players who have not made that switch. Which means they either need to convince a GM to remove the PvP flag, create a new character or convince their friends to flag for PvP so they can still play together.

The OP went away. Why are you still arguing about this?

Because folks like to discuss things?

The OP didn't go away. They're using a different name.

See.

You have obviously not read many of my posts in this thread and/or have cherry-picked what you want to 'school' me since I made several of your same arguments multiple times in different words. Thus, I really couldn't care less about what you're saying on it.

However, I will repeat that I sincerely doubt they will do diddly squat about anything related to PvP, even the just the wording on the ability to enable PvP for a character on any server. I also doubt they will remove the ability to enable PvP or in any way change the current arenas with their PvP mode when you are in the location. In the aughts they removed the book from starting inventories and also removed the guild war PvP mode, likely both because of the number of customer support issues they generated. Unless the current method to enable PvP crosses a threshold in the number of customer support issues it generates, they are extremely unlikely to do anything with it as well, no matter how vehement you are that PvP should be entirely removed from the game in all forms.

I simply stated that there should be no stripping of buffs if they allow people to switch between PvP and PvE modes on a server. You keep saying that there will be some sort of griefing because of that ability which I don't see how that would happen.

I also stated that if they are not going to add the ability to allow players to switch back to PvE after switching they should simply remove that ability as it just causes problems for people who switch and need a GM to switch them back.

If they removed the books from starting inventories because of CS issues it causes they should just remove the ability to switch to PvP if they don't want to add a way to switch back. There are still CS issues from people switching it just isn't as many as it used to be.

Ahhh... I guess I didn't read the whole thread.