Dev: Camp Rules on TLP

Nothing in the game will out dps a mage or a full group of mages. The mage pets r super op and with a casting mage its not beatable.

^^^^^^^^^^
Lol. This.

Unless you have been in the eq franchise and have kronos stockpiled, you will literally be paying to be griefed. Have to love that marketing strategy. People want the original quasi classic feeling, unfortunately, it didn't come with 4000 folks all with boxed toons, just open more servers, let the masses spread and then it can be handled easier. That's if the goal is to rekindle that experience, if not, then let the war begin and sorry to all those that came back for this.

classic+kunark at launch is a more realistic option...

I've been very careful to limit my arguments to group content. For raids, there is no other viable alternative. And it also makes more sense because, like I mentioned, it takes someone to clear a spawn and pop a named, but it doesn't take any pre-named work to pop a raid named. Excluding spawned mobs that are part of an event - the guild that triggers should have the right to that mob.

Both systems will cause people to leave. Some people might leave for boredom and some might leave because this rule encourages the absolute worst game play possible and it doesn't provide the majority of the server population with an acceptable remedy. We are already accepting a minuscule share of content, that's part of playing through the classic expansions of this game.

I already responded to your points about GM presence in response to another poster so I won't repeat it here. It's just a few posts up. How many camps do you really think need to be monitored for a very limited time + random times thereafter in order to assure compliance with the PNP and engagement rules? Probably under ten camps and you don't need to monitor them all, suspensions and bans are very effective in encouraging good behavior.

Those other waiting players - talk about a sense of entitlement. That is a tremendously WoW-like suggestion, that they are entitled to that mob just because they logged in? If a group has been at that spot putting in the time to clear the spawns, tough luck to the waiting players. Again, this is how things have always been. That is classic Everquest.

but its not... vote is over.
Something funny, its almost as if they wanted this to happen... they take votes with not a peep about the PNP or how things are going to be set up...
This allows for the vote to go one way then WHAM, here is the hammer none of you knew was coming... enjoy the show guys... we sure will watching you flail around like dying animals.

What would of happened I wonder if they announced from the jump that this was a FFA server with no rules? Would max nostalgia of won? Would classic only of won?

I think the answer to both of those is no.
Seems pretty freaking shady when you look at it this way.

That's pretty much what most people do anyway. However after you filled in every slot and its time to spend time upgrading slot by slot. What else are you supposed to do? At that point you either stop playing, because you've 'beaten the game.' Or you spend your time playing by filling in best in slot items one slot at a time.

That's when camps start becoming an issue. And this usually happens shortly after hitting 50. And will be a major issue since it will be 6 months before the leveling thing starts up again.

I leveled a druid to 14, it didn't take me long to fill in my gear slots. Literally like less than 10 hours over 3 days. As I level I will need to increase my stats to be able to fulfill my role in groups and carry new gear to sell for coin. Once I hit 50 it would make no sense for me to not wish to replace rawhide with something a bit more.. tuned for my class. More WIS, more mana regen, and maybe a focus effect once they're available.

The PNP made this means structured and civil. The new policy makes it anarchic and ugly. As I said there will be consequences and I am wondering if the powers that be, who are not GMs themselves, are understanding what it will be like.

They are applying a PVP policy without giving players the ability to PVP. Which means they will resort to other means of resolving their differences. That means training and other methods. But if thats what Daybreak wants, then thats what will happen. It is their choice. They just better be prepared to live with it.

Well this has changed me and my friends box combo now, which will now be Mage, Mage, Mage, Mage, Necro, Druid.

Bring it on Memblur

Well, I guess the good news is if you were worried about overcrowding I give it 2 months before over half the population quits due to terrible policies like this. People will enjoy it for a bit but they wont stick around for long if everytime they play a game it is like pulling teeth. 3 Months into Classic and it's gonna be a ghost town imo.

I don't think monitoring a camp is the simple matter you think it is, but I'll leave that to others to respond. Vaclav likely has more right to respond than anyone on this topic.

As for other waiting players - entitlement to the mob? No...entitlement to compete for the mob, yes. Waiting in line and then receiving unfettered access to the mob at the end of that line is not competition in any sense of the word, fighting for the mob is. With content this limited, that's what is fair, instead of being able to fall back on GMs to force sharing. Do you want contested content or not, that's the question for people. If they do want it, allow it to actually be contested instead of rationed by GMs. If they don't, hammer Daybreak for instancing, triggering, or whatever it takes.

One other point on the above - if clearing out the spawn is so important to ownership of the named, all you're really accomplishing is to insist that the other players also need to help with and/or contest the trash mobs too, instead of just waiting for the named. That's fair, at least everyone will have spent mana and has a chance to be low when the named comes.

Classic Everquest was rightfully converted to instances (Edit: I mean they rightfully stopped making expansions that used contested content and began instancing them), it was an unsustainable system. It, like Fippy, survived (but again survival =/= happiness), for two reasons: One, populations per server were kept thinner than Ragefire will be, and two, Kunark, Velious etc spread people out enough to keep taking more and more pressure off. When, for example, there's only a couple of items like the FBSS available for a group to obtain in Classic, the pressure is on. More expansions resulted in more options, and the pressure came down more and more.

Progression servers allow us to look back and realize they shouldn't have waited as long as they did to instance. .

My last post may have been a bit strong worded. We clarified the knowledge base entry today with the PNP here: https://help.daybreakgames.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/16211


The section we updated that will matter most to you guys:


There will be no first in force or engage rules arbitrated or enforced by a Game Master on any server. We believe players can resolve disputes about camps and raid bosses between each other. Game Masters will not help negotiate disputes between players and guilds.


The new Ragefire server will NOT have 24-hour GM support that will let us handle disputes over camps and raid targets. This is true on live servers as well, and players there have been able to work things out.


It’s important to me to be clear about what support we can provide before you guys take the time to contact us.

Group content in Everquest had never been administered in that fashion. Why should someone have the right to compete for a group named just because they logged in? They should have the right to disrupt somebody's game play because they exist? At some point this becomes a question of fairness. Even proponents of dps racing on fippy acknowledged that a triggered encounter belonged to the guild who triggered it except if that guild wiped. Why? Why did they embrace this idea? You want to put a stamp of approval on a change of gameplay that encourages griefing and robs players of any sense of security. It's a bad choice for a healthy server population. There is no reason for this change. This is why I cite to historical Everquest. This change isn't needed. It's not classic. It's not even progression. It's pandering to the lowest common denominator - people that have no care for their fellow player.

The decision to remove the newbie armour quests will also make this change to the PNP substantially worse. Those quests allowed players to skip the gear grind through the camps of the dungeons across the world, that meant that people could focus mostly on exp until they reached near max level. The removal of those quests has the most impact on the melee classes (with the exception of monks), as they are more gear dependant than casters.

So what you mean is "Sorry I was blunt about it, but it is what it is."

Cool, thanks for clarifying that.

Triggered encounters are different, because, in epics for example, you stand to lose lots of work put into getting to that point, work that you will have to re-do if it is taken from you. On the other hand, showing up 5 minutes before another group in Lguk represents no lost effort. You're saying one group should haven't the right to compete just for logging in, but what did you do more than that apart from logging in 5 minutes earlier?

I don't remember this because I started in Oct 99, but people keep saying that the Play Nice Policy was not started til Oct 99, so prior to that, group content was in fact administered this way (IF this is true).

It would have been nice to have been informed of this change of policy prior to the last set of voting options, I am confident the change in policy would have had an impact on the votes that people cast.

How can anyone that knows anything about this game think this? Its just mind boggling that you guys are still trying to sell this as valid....

That would depend on whose "need" we're talking about. Paying people to hockey ref arbitrate petty disagreements about old progression content on one specific throwback server doesn't seem like a good use of their funds. It'll work itself out over time and save the company money to boot!

At the time they started instancing, with LDoN instancing was still fairly new development overall in MMO's, so I really don't fault them for not having it sooner. They were always pretty good about addressing some of the worst epic weapon bottlenecks and continue to be with live, and even class specific armor was made alot more available overall. This issue is where there isn't instancing alot of this content(Epic weapons aside) is old and quickly replaced within 2 expansions.

As it pertains to DPS races/wars on groupable non raid content the answer seems to be if you want to group for loot you form a rotating raid group and hold as many named spawns as you can until DBG reverses their judgement on this, the exp will suck but if you are only there for an opportunity to get loot if it drops well thats the tradeoff.

plus how many boxers want to deal with full 1-2 raids camping a zone, they will either form there own raid to compete opening up other areas or move on.

Feel free to reacquire your items, levels, characters, raids, quests, fun, and/or server through gameplay.

I would be very interested to hear from Roshen if DBG really, truly, believes that Ragefire is going to work under these conditions and when it does not, what exactly is this extreme method they are thinking of doing.

Fear can be a heavy deterrence, so what exactly are yall planning to do if we cant get along? Despawn entire zones for a period of time (This seems to be the working theory by many)?

Furthermore, is it not possible to move some senior guides to the server and give them a little more discretion in the way they can deal with problem players, such as removing them from zones or even killing them outright if they disobey?

If you don't have the GM staff to do it, let some long time, senior guides do it.