Monks bring nothing to raids. Nothing at all. Why even have a Monk on your roster these days? Im starting to see less and less Monks in EQ. People wonder why so many quit this game. Its not because the game sucks - Its because the devs let a certain class stagnate and seep into suckage without remedying the situation before it finally boils to a head. This is why people quit. Lets face it, once your max level and maxed AAed and have a name for yourself WITH said character (whether your class sucks or not) - Its really hard to get motivated to re-roll as another class. To top it off, its a shame that someone should even consider re-rolling just because the class you have played for a decade sucks now and isnt wanted on a raid. As someone else mentioned, a Monk being raid invited and getting into the raid is a welfare spot. Given equal talent, if a rogue and a Monk are online and you already have 53 people in your raid, who do you invite? The choice is simple: Rogue. The devs need to do something for Monks asap. They need help in the worse way. Being raid invited and getting into raids as a welfare/pity spot shouldnt be happening to any class, much less Monks. So do something with these broke unwanted classes, devs. This is your game and you develop it. Stop letting classes spiral out of control to where no group or raiding guild wants them. All this does, is cost you subscriptions.
Good post sir! We might want to try to keep it to the threads that currently exist on the topic so we're not spamming the other classes out of the fourms, but it's all true. Many of us are trying to communicate through the proper channels and get this changed. Carry on
I thought of something earlier. How about giving Monks a version of rogues massive strike? But call it massive kick. A passive ability that randomly fires a huge kick after landing a successful flying kick. Its passive. This would actually go a ways to putting Monk DPS where it should be. I understand it wouldnt be a fix-all, but its a good step in the right direction and something that should be easily implemented. In the end, Monks need something passive to remedy their DPS. They are way too wack-a-mole as it is right now and a Monks UI/hotkey setup is already looking like the controls of a 747 Jet.
That's actually one of the ideas that was mentioned during the monk IRC AA chat. Elidroth said it was possible and that he would look into something like massive strike for monks. There's a transscript of the chat posted: Here There's also an organized and edited post a little further down the page: Here
1) Group aura= Gives 100% modifier to all procs ie weapon, poison, bard song etc to all group members in range and gives 300% modifier to monks. This gives the monks a dps boost over and above what they provide and should help decrease the space between themselves and other melee that already exists while also providing a utility that makes them useful in adding to a group or raid dps team. 100% increase to 5 other players is a significant contribution but shouldnt be so much that it trivializes encounters. 2) Rogs , Zerks, Wars, Monks are the only 4 classes in the game with 0 mana or spells in the game. 2 of these classes have a mass kill ability. I see no reason why the other 2 do not have a similar ability. 3) Give monks 1 massive hit ability ever so many seconds like rogues. My idea is that the damage scales based on how much damage is accumulated on the next successful flying kick ability. So if you land full on the next FK the massive hit should also land full etc. Not only would these utilities be useful but they would be fun and help close the gap without over doing it.
1) Procs are more or less worthless. The not worthlessness comes from proc buffs/discs, most of which are limited by counters anyway. Plus they mostly have proc modifiers on the buffs themselves, which I'm not sure would play nice with a +proc mod aura. 2)Personally, I'd rather not have that hang over our heads like rangers, zerkers and rogues. These abilities are being phased out (no upgrades with RoF or future expansions from my understanding) and will only hurt us in the long run 3a)We have a massive hit disc from VoA, called crane stance. It's on a ~10 minute timer iirc and requires our longest reuse disc(30 mins), DPS group support(which we don't get anymore in my experience), our kick damage debuff(easy enough) and luck to be effective DPS on a raid fight. 3b)editing this, you might also be talking similar to the rogue ability 'Massive Strike' which procs a backstab(off a backstab off a backstab off a backstab) off of one of their backstab hits. If so, we asked for it in: the monk/rogue AA IRC chat, a PM between multiple devs and a few monks in the community, and on the other monk help post on these forums. Elidroth said he'd look into it during the IRC chat. That being said, I don't know how the rogue one works, but if it's going to proc a flying kick off a flying kick, the proc needs to do way, way more damage than regular flying kick for it to be any help. Our specials including flying kick do abysmal damage.
Maereax I know all about it. I played monk for 12 years and played with you a couple of those. The monk fix needs to me simple and touch on only a couple issues. Asking for more than a couple things isnt likely to happen. So the big problems? Pulling is gone forever. The primary role of the monk. So now monks play no role in the game other than dps. They add no benefit in group and raid situations any longer. You need to kill multiple birds with stone here. Up Dps while increasing group and raid value. That proc aura does both. You increase the groups dps while increasing the monks dps by a greater amount than what other people in the group get, while making yourself a valuable commodity in a group or raid. What class doesnt want to see their dps go up? As for the mass kill ability. Its gonna get phased out over time anyway. Since pulling is pointless now a days what other fun utility do people roll monks for? They dont. As for the massive strike deal. My idea isnt a disc but more like a passive AA where your flying kick button , you know the one you are mashing every few seconds anyway, would produce a buff every so many seconds or minutes or what have you. This buff then makes the next successfully landed flying kick to do a massive spike kick similiar to but weaker than backstab. Have it scale accordingly to kick discs.
I would love to see monks get some help. Flash back to UF and pre UF where monks were amazing DPS, they would easily find synergy ADPS groups on my raids mostly because of their survivability over rogues and zerkers. I recall numerous wins where monks were toe to toe at the end when the raid was dieing off still rolling strong. However, today, when I balance groups I cant afford to put a monk in a good ADPS synergy group if I'm short bards/shaman/beast. The monks simply don't compete, and the survivability is not worth the large DPS loss. The solution should probably be two fold. 1) Obviously monks need a personal DPS increase, and I would leave that to the monks to debate (I have always like the idea of something innate similar to massive strike for you guys though). 2) From a raid leader standpoint, I would like to see monks have some synergy to offer the groups. I'm not suggesting it be AS powerful as the beastlord fix, but quite frankly it would really make my life easier if it was, and maybe something along those lines is not so bad. If monks were interchangeable in some way with one of the ADPS classes then they would certainly be desirable or interchangeable in group make up. In the worst case it would also allow for more ADPS raid group options across the board. Nothing is more frustrating than being a DPS class in the raid group without ADPS. Alternately, this option could be a large group benefit in the way of survivability. Sometimes events are just harsh, and a below average shaman cant quite keep up. It would make monks a very useful tool in the way of group make up, or as an addition to tank groups, which is a route we use to go with monks in the past because of their aura. I'm not sure if I like Lyrical's suggestion of a proc mod, but something down that road, aura or AA activated group synergy is great. Maybe even give monks two stance type options one option provides the group with survivability and the other option would be ADPS; if either is used the other option would be locked out. This would give monks a couple great dual raid role, and allow for countless group position options. In summation I want a valuable way to use monks on raids; right now they are odd group out. Shortage of bards/beast/shaman tend to cause all sorts of problems across guilds in modern EQ. One group will reap major ADPS rewards and others will perform at half value. Maybe monks can be fixed in a way that also helps the DPS community at large. If you took that route you might find a large degree of support from other DPS classes such as rogues/rangers and zerkers who are left out of ADPS groups all to often. I bet casters would like a way to get their hands on bards more often if possible too.
I'm not fond of the ADPS idea for monks since I think the massive ADPS inflation we currently see on raids is already bad as is. This would only add to the problem Devs are currently facing when trying to figure out the class balancing mess we see today. In my opionion the only way for monks can be the personal DPS route and this is where we need to shine to make us wanted on raids again. Leave the ADPS to classes that have it already, don't add oil to the fire. As I already wrote in another thread, on the long run the ADPS needs to be toned down to something that is still calculatable when designing events and balancing classes. Eli, Prathun or whoever feels responsible to work on a fix for the situation, I am sure the situation and the (imo too many) threads about this issue has not gone by you unnoticed, could we get any feedback please? This non existing communication on this topic is frustrating and really disheartening. Communicate? Please?
To Lyrical - I agree with your idea, just not the implementation. I honestly think that a proc increase aura would not be a noticeable increase to our personal dps nor would it be of great value to other DPS classes. That was what I was trying to say in my initial reply to you. Right now there's two kinds of procs in the game, in a general sense: The stuff like weapon procs that have been the same damage since like ~DoN, and proc abilities that are worth using. The weapon procs and clicky buffs are, for lack of a more elegant way to phrase it, useless in regards to DPS. The other type, proc abilities and such, would not benefit from a proc mod aura for the most part, because the majority of them have proc counters on them. If we get a two minute proc buff with 20 counters and are currently draining it in a minute and a half, what good does it do us to drain it in 45 seconds instead? The reason I'm against a kill ability is because right now rangers, rogues and berserkers are having their kill abilities lobbied against them along with their current DPS/utility/ect as reasons they should be nerfed, stagnated, or other classes need to be buffed. People are fan-tastic at misrepresenting data for their own agendas and I really don't think that having head-shot on the list of things other classes hate about us will be beneficial for the long term health of the class. That, and i really, really doubt the devs will even consider this when they've already expressed their dislike for these abilities. As far as the massive strike thing you're talking about, it sounds a lot like something we asked for, basically a monk version of the rogue aa massive strike, but for kicks instead of backstabs. Elidroth said he would look into something like that during our IRC chat. Lanthor - I completely agree with a lot of your points. One thing I would like to point out, personally I'm vehemently against making us any sort of ADPS class. I won't pretend to speak for monks as a whole when I say that, but I am confident I'm also not alone either. That being said, I have been swayed to the point that something along the same amount of utility as rogues having theifs eyes or berserkers cry havoc would be beneficial. Meaning, it's not why we'd be in the group, but an added bonus or benefit of having us there. We are not bards, beastlords, berserkers, shaman or rangers for a reason. There's already so many current issues with ADPS, and monks were never intended to be a support class.
Totally agree it is a problem. I recall a while back there was a debate and a suggestion line was to merely make stuff more AE based. Warcry/FE etc. are global and therefore easy to balance and control. More classes with Beast/Bard tools would make raids less lopsided when they are lacking any one type. Raids could be more fairly tuned because there would be more optimal group options through various class uses. One way to fix the issue and meet your "calculable factor" is to simply make the ADPS skills more common, so that more people bringing something to the table. And make certain things more situational and non multiplicative. Fixing the synergy can be accomplished by adding tools that merely don't stack, or repeat existing effects so that class stacking does not receive a HUGE multiplicative benefit with use of cool downs. (emphasis added). Some of the big offenders (certainly not exclusive) right now that dramatically change ADPS set ups are: - Ruabbri's Fury (beastlord) - Quicktime (bard) - Fierce Eye (bard) - Shaman epic If we could make sure a majority of groups in a standard mixed raid saw these benefits then ADPS would be easier to control and more stable. Right now the guilds who put up the biggest numbers have at least 3 melee groups with Bard/Shaman/Beastlord (3 of some combo zerker/rogue/ranger). It is not easy to class balance for it. Monks have no value added in this picture (DPS fix gets them part of the way there, but they should not beat rogues/zerkers both of which have other value added). I'm not sure monks are the best option for the ADPS either, but if there is a way to get some ADPS to other classes and the game in a manner that we are not adding to the multiplicative power of the ADPS it would help the issue. For example lets just pretend that monks were given something like Ruabbri's Fury. It could be coded so that there was a cool down recourse that blocked the beastlord version for 10 minutes and visa versa. You could still use the two in 20 minutes, but you could not get obscene 2 minute burns by stacking them. If you wanted to group pair them for whatever reason (monk/beast) you could stagger, or either could TGB another group. In both situations the ADPS factor is measurable and stable. I can understand why a class might not want to go down the ADPS road. I also don't think bard songs should be infringed upon so they maintain their ADPS pedestal. Their activates are another story.
I believe Eldiroth, in the IRC chat, said he didn't want to turn monks into an ADPS class. One of the problems I can see the devs having with upping our DPS is the fact that we're so survivable as a class. To the point where we can be a viable substitute for a tank, if it weren't for the no-taunt aspect. Give monks more DPS and now we're a very competitive solo / molo class. I'm not sure if this is a large problem, as there are already classes out there with massive DPS and survivability (mages would be the prime example). I think a neat solution to this would be a new disc - significantly increases DPS, but significantly decreases survivability. Now you can burn and top a parse like the rest, but if you get hit, you also take the hit like the rest. I don't know how feasible that would be and I'm sure people would disagree with it a lot. In terms of raids, we're absolutely not in demand and haven't been for years. If you're lucky enough to have landed in a raid spot, you're stuck there. No chance of moving to another raiding team, as you're useless. Monks can pull anything - thread any named through any mess of mobs and still have it reach their camp with a solo mob. But it's not in demand anymore. The mechanics of a raid aren't pulls, they're ATs. NToV gives us a brief glimpse of pulling, but it's usually for naught as an SK decides they'd like to pull instead. Hopefully the new update will give us some better raids where we need to be able to pull properly, but again, we're not the professional pullers anymore - send in an SK who can HA a mob in then FD for a split. Or a bard who can fade and fade and fade as many times as he wants. Seriously, why do we not have a faster fade? Even one minute would be a vast improvement.
I had planned to stay out of this thread as I am a rogue and not a monk and don't want to get in the way of you trying to help your class as I usually stay out of these sorts of discussions unless they're about my class in particular (and to be up front, this post is not in anyway trying to do that)...however, you mentioned "Massive Strike" and that you weren't entirely sure of how it works. Basically, it has a 5% chance of proc'ing off of any backstab attack we do...so if we hit backstab and get a triple backstab...it could proc off of each hit. If we riposte and the riposte procs a backstab (thanks to Knaves Return Strike), then it could proc Massive Strike as well. For that matter, since Massive Strike is considered a 'powered up' backstab and uses the "backstab" attack in it...it can proc off of itself. Since it only has a 5% chance of proc'ing, the chances of multiple procs off of each other are really low, but they do happen occasionally. The highest rank of Massive Strike in the spell data is the following: 1: Backstab Attack for 1200 with 10000% Accuracy Mod Now, this doesn't mean it'll only do 1200 damage, because there is some funky way it calculates damage. Our Incursion Rk. II ability uses the same wording but the attack is set at 2623 instead...and it can crit for more than a normal backstab can, usually (the chance of a multi-proc is 5% off of that first 5%, a 3rd proc would be 5% of that 5% of that first 5%, etc). The Flying Kick attack value would probably have to be higher than our backstab one on Massive Strike (and maybe even Incursion...not sure how the values work as I said) is if they did it, I imagine...as Flying Kick by its very nature doesn't do as much damage as Backstab does. If I were to make one suggestion for this, too, I would say it should be able to trigger on any of your special attacks and not just Flying Kick...as you have that AA that lets you fire up to I think it's 2 random 'special attacks' whenever you use one...or something like that (it's been awhile since I played my monk, so I'm not entirely sure on the wording of it). This would also let your "Return Kick" AA trigger this just like our "Knave's Return Strike" AA can do so. Hope this info helped you. ^^
Maereax I wont argue the "implementation" part you are unsure of as Im not intuned to the coding, which I assume is what you are talking about. As for my proc idea not adding enough firepower...im not talking about just weapon procs. Im talking about bard song procs, poison buff procs. Before I retired I know with a bard in group I would proc 10k hp quite often with ?Noiras? I think it was called and up to 7k hp with poison potion buff. Add 200 to 300% to those procs and im quite sure that added dps will go a long ways to catching monks up in dps while providing a smaller 100% boost to others in group. Making both your dps go up at a higher margin closing the gap, and making others in group go up in a way that other classes dont already use. Hey maybe im just off the wall here, but 1 aura could fix 2 problems, dps and group utility. For those that "dont want adps" for monks..........what are you going to do then? You arent going to be in the top 3 or 4 of dpsers. You no longer pull, and other classes who dont out dps you already, if there are any, provide things necessary to a raid or group that you do not provide. I mean im with ya. I like the old monk ways where we just pulled and hit stuff and were the best at one and in the top 3 best of the other. But those days are long long long gone. Just trying to add some ideas that could work in todays game that would bring something unique to the table.
I'm also against adding adps for monks. In fact, zerks (and rogs to a lesser extent) already bring this to group/raid, and it has not been held against them from a dps perspective. So even though you could argue that monks could have an adps role AND have their dps raised, it has already been made clear by Elidroth that he does not see monks as adps. I'm good with that personally. In terms of what we do want, its to be well ahead of hybrids, who offer much more utility, and in line with or in close proximity to rog/zerk dps. How that is accomplished does not bother me at all, but its time we were close to interchangeable dps. As you say, the game has moved on a lot, and what used to make monks 'different' has twindled to such an extent that there is very little tangible difference - certainly in the role they play (dps). I appreciate it is 'boring' though, but it would at least be 'balanceable'.
This is frustrating, were told things are being routed up the chain for a fix but nothing seems to be happening. The test notes come out and still no love for monks and completly things are being put into the game such as more hats BS. I mean really why focus on things like hats when you are forcing people to go to different characters because monks are useless. There are a few of us hanging on hoping the fix is coming but it looks more and more like it isnt. I have even started working on a zerker just so I can actually help my guild out on raids, instead of just being a wasted raid spot. And in all reality thats all a monk has become on raids is a wasted raid spot. The group game is just as bad but it isnt highlighted the way it is on raids when everyone is trying to perform thier best and if they slack in the raid game it shows. But for a monk to do everything perfect in a raid they may as well be behind the clerics in dps(yes a bit exagerated but starting to be the way it feels). So when will monks see any love from the developers?
Why should I recruit a monk over a rogue/zerker when rogues zerkers bring that to group/raid and you don't? Why would I put a monk in a high synergy group when they get 10-20% less X synergy multiplier, and offers nothing up? Survivability, is your one and only argument these days, and its value has been greatly diminished. In fact one of the monks biggest selling points before knights got deflect and all sorts of crazy tanking skills, was that they and rangers could step in light tank for a bit. We use to use and see rangers and monks on the stage more; now there is not as much room for anyone. It is really not as needed in the wake of the drastic changes to knights; they can pretty much handle anything "THE BEST" in terms of utility. So like I said 1) Monks need a personal DPS boost (that is obvious). BUT, that will get you HALF WAY THERE. What is the number 2) selling point? Honestly, we would not even recruit a monk right now for the most part. I just don't have anywhere to put or use them. I'm sure the Qulas' of the game do outstanding and break 100k (we use to have a couple like that), but the average monk is embarrassingly bad. You have to be in the top 1% before you get any love. I don't think just DPS alone will get you guys there today. Those who don't want ADPS, what about a tool that is a large mitigation bonus or some sort of value added to the group outside of DPS? I hate to mention healing here because the knights will cry. Random examples, nothing my hearts set on, but down the lines of: group mend, group spell mitigation, or some sort of group recovery device? That way the value added by putting a monk in a big DPS group is they will give everyone a higher chance of living to DPS more. This would probably earn you a place in an ADPS group where you can further personally maximize?
Thank you, that was in fact very helpful! I knew the basics of massive strike, but not the specifics of how it worked. Also, that's a brilliant idea and honestly I don't know if any of these slacker monks suggested it. Thank you, very much!
I see your point, and I'm not really sure. Here's a couple things related to this issue though: Right now, ADPS is out of control and needs to be toned way the hell down, not toned up/added. I had typed out a rogue example but I want to stress that I'm not looking to have any other class changed nor am I trying to spread misinformation about another class, so I'm going to make vague statements that apply to most melee (NOT just rogues). I'm talking anyone, ranger, rogue, beastlord, zerker. Right now an average DPS can probably solo burn in the 50-70k DPS range without a support group. With the correct support group, people are burning 120-140k. That's almost triple the damage. It definitely requires coordination and it requires the perfect setup, but it's possible and way, way too much. I'm very leery of us getting defensive bonuses. I don't know about the rest of the raiding community, but when I was raiding in PoR and we got our aura that made the group immune to riposte/enrage but before all the melee got that as an AA, we got stuck in tank groups. I'd rather not go that route again unless they change us into straight tanks Now, let me ask this. If the best monk in the game fully endgame geared and max AA was competing against the same exact situation rogue or zerker and did 10% less dps, would you take them? Meaning, the other player did 120k, we did 108k DPS.
