I'm going to go ahead and post a mea culpa, I was definitely wrong on max slay if you get a lucky condemnation proc. It just doesn't happen a lot and I don't pay much attention anymore, so hadn't noticed. I actually went and parsed some to be able to answer the question on SPA and how slay is calculated, vis a vis innate holyblade. I am working on that (its pretty obvious that our old formula (that worked btw) aren't correct, mathematically they may work out the same at the time, but don't now. I'll post that when I have time to run the math and see where the formula goes. But I had a cleanse value of 2166777, over double a normal "max" with just blessing going. So, not counting the damage from hStr (it is added at the very end, after the (cleanse) is worked out, or any vulnerable (like from our undead nuke/debuff or bard one or anything else, or weapon immunities), I'm getting the following With: Mammoth's strength III (all skills 11%) 591 base damage weapon Knights weapon mastery (40%) Innate holy blade (80%) 2 hand proficiency (110%) getting 769689 slay Add in blessing of the faithful (150%) goes to 1124064 slay condemnation proc (and this may not be max, gonna have to get a LOT of uses of it to ensure it is max) took that to 2166777 Condemnation is a 744 2hs base attack, so does it simply replace the 591 dmg on the weapon or add to it to put 1333 into the formula? Also curious if it is additive, if you have a 2hb or 2hp weapon, if it works the same or just goes with 744. Will have to test that. Slay for reference is supposed to be 3150% and intensity is 50% damage mod. Damage bonus is 661 (regular damage bonus DOES go into the () number, but at the very end). Will post more later. Or people with more time can use those to figure it out. Offense skill 280 2hs skill 430 level 110 strength (2595 actual, 1309 non-heroic (shoot me, didn't do all that useless innate eminence) Those values was without using a dmg mod familiar, but I think that goes on at the end with hStr damage.
i appreciate all the work you are puting into breaking down these numbers but could you pls move this to a new thread. it is a little off topic here and i dont want good info on slay numbers to get lost in this thread
Thanks for chasing this Yepmetoo. Righteous Condemnation and Reflexive Reverence abilities are the biggest hits a paladin can make currently. They're both swings on their own, like a berserker Frenzy attack, and not additive to your weapon, like no dmg bonus. See SPA 193. They should both be affected by Two-Handed Proficiency and other stats affecting 2H Slash weapon skills. Easy to test by using the ability while bare-handed and unbuffed. Reflexive Reverence Rank III has a paladin's biggest possible base 2H hit at 1038 currently (see Maedhros' 2M hit). Second to that would be Condemnation Rank II (744) as you showed. They're both rare outliers from normal combat with long cool downs. I don't believe that Slay Undead balancing should be limited by either of them. Second call for a new thread on this. Still on this topic. More use from Twinstrike AA requested a few months ago needs some love. Basically please add 10 endurance cost to Condemnation Strike so it can Twinstrike. See https://dgcissuetracker.com/browse/EQ-2057
Yes the skill damage replaces the value of your weapon and is not reliant on your weapon type. The luck required to proc a slay on demand of the “skill” attack is :/ even bringing it into this conversation is going down a path of nonsense and should not be brought into balance considerations.
Gotta be honest, numbers not adding up right. I wonder if the formula changed at some point or if there is something that scales non-linearly. Spent too much time on the dummy going back every 5 minutes to hit reflexive trying to get lucky and get a max slay (or any freaking slay), and running with condemnation until I used the procs. Talk about rare, even with the ac down on the dummy past -3000.
Did anyone suggest a mass group buff ability? We have Brell's, Hand of ..., and obsolete group Symbols, non of which are really combat buffs. Sad paladin. I'd like to see a new MGB'able group buff that paladin's can cast during raid combat that stacks nicely with whatever. Maybe: that Group Yaulp idea can be made to fit? a group rune e.g. Knight's Synergy (generates no hate) or revive Divine Favor as a group line? a group Rejuvenating Steel line that also recourses Endurance (to help melee recover)? Recall that paladin's once had a STA regen spell "Invigor" before endurance was introduced Also how about a single target Brell's to upgrade Divine Strength (for buffing mission/raid NPC). It's a minor thing but adds flavor and who's chuckling at DS being faithfully cast on Lcea and friends?
Spell and AA Ideas: Spell - AC Buff - akin to the ranger 108 spell shared Cloak of Needlebarbs. Same amount of AC but without the DS component - so the two spells would not stack - but our spell would stack with Illusionary spikes clicky (side note - Ranger spell above should have a higher ds than illusionary spikes, even if it is by 1 point, as the clicky currently blocks the spell). Spell - Cleric Hammer - aids dps, not as good a version as the cleric one - just because I want a hammer. Like Thor. Spell - Rune Shield - Shields you from damage - heals you when the spell breaks. Could be a group version/MGB-able, INSTACAST (Paladin's are fighting while they cast, like SK's and Bsties and Rangers - we need quick or instant cast times, add the cast time to the re-cast time if you have to). AA - Pact with the Dead/Divine Aid. Swarm pets. Think Aragorn in Return of the King. In exchange for their service, Aragorn pardons the dead and allows the entry to the afterlife (or wallmart, or wherever, just not here!) Summons 3 undead type knights (think chapterhouse) who attack your current target for x amount of time. I thought of this for a spell, but if we had constant swarm pets up some would think that would be too powerful. This might be a bit too....'muddy' for the EQ Paladin so as an alternative, the swarm pets could be fallen paladins, ghostly figures, who could maybe have a slay ability if fighting undead? AA - Mark of Retaliation - a buff that when hit by an enemy procs a 1 hit reverse ds on to it, so when they hit you again they take X amount of damage (think reverse DS meets Wrath of the Wild) and causes them to have reduced accuracy for 3 ticks. Spell/AA - Holy Light (has that been a spell name) - Casts a de-buff on your target that makes they susceptible to slays for 18 seconds. This is obviously going to have to have a long re-cast, so it may be better suited to an AA than a spell.
I like most of those ideas, but I still think this falls into the "asking Santa for a bazooka" on the Christmas wish list. For me, instant cast crushes, and half the cast time on all of our HOTT heals and I would be over the moon.
I've been thinking.... Kinda coming to the idea that the same reasons for asking to get instant cast crushes should apply to the two stuns that share timers with the crushes as well. You're only going to have 2 of the 4 spells memorized because of the timer issue anyways. Stuns are supposed to be a big part of our arsenal, but making the two crushes instant cast and not the two stuns would just further weaken the reason to use the stuns.
Wondering who loads the shared lockout stuns over the crushes...? Also, can someone explain this: [50069] Holy Fulmination III Mana: 10 Target: Single Range: 50' Resist: Magic -1000 Reflectable: No Focusable: No Casting: 0s Hate: 85570 1: Stun for 4s up to level 110 2: Decrease Current HP by 1140962 VS. [50121] Bloodletting Fulmination III Target: Single Range: 50' Resist: Magic -1000 Reflectable: No Focusable: No Casting: 0s Hate: 162800 1: Decrease Current HP by 2170617
i suspect the answer is that its a dps spell . and your a paladin and arent sopose to have spells that do more dps then dps classes. as for the hate over ride it makes perfect sense for a dps spell to have limited hate
It becomes even more glaringly questionable when you factor in how much easier Shadowknights can trigger their fulmination effect versus Paladins. This would be somewhat justifiable if Shadowknights didn’t now outnumber Paladins overall on average in raid rosters. I like to try to give the benefit of the doubt though and say this is another time where developers think a stun portion on ours brings this into balance when in reality it’s nowhere near
Situationally yes. As long as stuns proc Healing Light they have value in heavy AoE events. Also events like EoK 1.1 and 2.1 where stun bubbles are part of the strat. I load a stun in more events then I load paladin alliance. That alliance makes no sense class-wise. Paladins should have gotten a healing alliance. Why are Devs encouraging paladins to load nukes when they need to be healing and tanking? /boggle
I think you misunderstood completely. That is a comparison of a paladin and shadow-knight alliance. Funny that you thought it was a dps alliance though, kinda makes my point. As for the hate...it generates twice as much hate as the paladin version.
I can explain. One belongs to the priest knight and the other belongs to the dps knight. Are you the leader of a guild or do you just play one on TV? Someone has regrets about rolling a priest knight.
incase you did not know shadowknights are a spell casting dmg tank hybrid. and paladins are a spell casting healing tank hybrid i am suggesting that the diffrence in dmg of the 2 spells directly correlates to that fact
I am far more interested in the futile stun component of the alliance. Bosses on raids are almost exclusively stun immune. Hell even most named in the group game are stun immune. So we are talking about a pretty small assortment of mobs that have enough hp to warrant the alliance, are under level 110, and are not immune to stun. What are we talking about here, Alchemists on the prince raid? With ranger headshot being absurdly OP, goodluck fulminating anything against those. Would greatly prefer that the stun be replaced by a buff on target of target that granted a larger rune or vie type mitigation buff when the paladin alliance fulminated. I do tend to believe alliances are what they are though and we wont see any changes in the future. Alliance will be staying firmly in the never memmed section of the spell book for nearly all paladins I assume.
