Twisted Legacy's Raiding Proposal - Rotation

EoV as gate keeper would have been a good idea, but now that Bee is not doable without cheesing your way, its not doable anymore.

You realize that this is basically the same as the Lockjaw rotation?

Funny how I see you bashing that rotation, but this is a good start.

We got a private leadership forum on the www ragefireforums com where we could have a decent discussion about things instead of all of this.
Dojii(or other apok rep?)? Skyp?..
Breeze and I are already waiting on you 2 to show up.

I unfortunately will never participate in behind the door conversations unless its with the leadership of my own guild or with the staff at DBG. That being said, we've already reached out to all raiding guilds in attempt to negotiate a reasonable rotation.

In recent events we're aware guilds have been in on a one on one discussion regarding a rotation that would better suit their guild's needs in attempt to form leverage with other guilds. That's fine, but TL is holding all future conversations regarding this topic until we can get an arbitrator in place to help us come up with a mutual and un-bias rotation. Until this happens, we will continue raiding as we have been doing so.

I also don't think I can stress this enough, DBG is responsible for upholding this rotation, implementing it and updating it.

I know why you're saying this but I doubt that is what DBG is currently contemplating. You of all people know how they work. They will want to leave the lion's share of the work to the players and enforce when necessary. Otherwise they would make the rotation too. You are trying to force their hands - it's quite transparent.

But this is all quite a suboptimal way of solving the problem anyway.

Now, since I am not a raider on Ragefire (just a regular player there) so I don't even know your connection with TL (officer, GL, member, etc.) but ... by this statement are you stating that you won't participate in nor abide by any rotation the rest of the guilds set up unless DGC is the one in the 'room' so to speak with the guilds setting this up?

I completely agree that this is the only way things will stay fair. I'm also sure DBG doesn't want the nightmare of maintaining this, either. The whole thing as it stands now looks like a situation that both sides of the argument, and even DBG themselves, want to walk away from.

It's the 27th, are the guides/dev team being brought in to sort this out yet? It looks like some folks are stalling and trying to game the process to get their way... An arbitrator is by far the best suggestion I've seen in either of the rotation threads.

I'm saying this because I do not want to put in the hours required to maintain this rotation (I'm not making this subtle, I'm flat out saying its not our responsibility to maintain it). This is a flaw on the game design, not a flaw on the player base.

I 100% want to rotate raid content, In fact we've been discussing the possibility of doing this internally a week before this was even announced. Now that this rotation was officially declared by DBG, guilds are stomping the grounds claiming our proposals aren't fair and as a result are doing whats in their guilds best interest and completely ignoring the best interest of other guilds.

The solution needs to be mutually beneficial for all guilds. Because DBG has proposed that we need to do this, they need to be the ones responsible for it. Not the players.

Are we clear?

I have a feeling that any solution DBG comes up with will be as simple as possible and absolutely not mutually beneficial. The guilds that have been waiting for DBG to clean up the neighborhood will benefit a ton more than the ones who have been fighting the other guilds more than the mobs.

I'm pretty sure DBG is gonna push a solution that involves as few man hours($) as possible, and keeps/regains as many subs($) as possible. The gush of canceled subs is what probably brought on the rotation decision in the first place.

My guild raids CST. Most of us work. If they can't field anyone at 12pm CST because everyone is at work, they can't do the mob. How does that even not click one single molecule in your brain to think "Oh, people might not sit at their computer all day?". Seriously, just because someone can't field a raid any time of in 1-3hours, shouldn't disqualify them from the rotation.

However, in that light, it also isn't fair to anyone else for a mob to stay up for 10hours while that guild fields a raid. I think we can all agree on that. That is one of the reasons why rotations can work but require a lot of work and compromise. I don't fault anyone for not wanting to run this.

Just remember that not wanting to come up with an agreement may put GM involvement, and that is going to cause more issues than anything. I can already see waiting 5+hours for the go ahead to kill a mob.

One problem with a mob staying up to long.... And this may only be possible with Naggy/Vox..

Okay, mob pops at 2 P.M. CST - You won't have enough until 7 P.M. CST. Other guilds allow you this 5 hour window to get your crew together since it's your day. But wait a minute... A Mage army decides to come in and kill your mob. Guess whose fault that is?

I agree that guild should have the time to get their force on when mobs pop during off hours (middle of the night/typical working hours M-F). However, the problem isn't entirely with other guilds screwing you, it's the boxers and/or botters.

I know it sucks, but if it spawns outside your time frame then all you can do is your best. If you can't field enough players in your allotted time, then the mob turns to FFA. Just my opinion. It's not the end of the world to miss a mob sometimes. Naggy, Vox, Inno, CT they all spawn everyday, you'll have a shot to kill a mob almost everyday, you may lose one to bad timing, but you may gain one as well.

The issue at hand is that nobody is really negotiating.

TL put forth their proposal and forum warriors (that by and large would never be able to kill the stuff until TL has moved on to new expansions anyways which is another issue unto itself) were aghast. Admittedly it did benefit them with all of the FFA periods, however it gave other guilds a fighting chance to experience the content which is a helluva lot more than what they've got now (as Qulas said, 20% sure beats <1%). A few other people have submitted their own proposals that dramatically benefit their own interests without taking into consideration other's.

There's been no negotiation (at least publicly) on any of these proposals, it's simply people throwing stuff at a wall, drawing a line in the sand, and then waiting for forum warriors to post pointless things.

And frankly, there probably is no point in having those negotiations if DBG isn't at the table either. If people can't agree to things (which seems to be case because of the lack of negotiation) you either let it exist as is or you arbitrate the issue; DBG has decided to arbitrate the issue, but there's a reason why arbitration exists in the form it does where an arbiter (and rule enforcer, to boot) has to actually be present.

Edit: and what Zublak said. You can construct arguments for lots of things in this pristine environment that exists in your own mind (/you want the server to be) but it won't matter if the current reality doesn't support it.

Yeah, gotcha.

For most people the raiding slot would be between like 19:00 and 23:00, so that's a 4 hour window. If the boss spawns during the other 20 hours in the day, you won't get it. You will not get a chance to attempt your raid boss 83% of the time.

So a 1 hour window means TL / other guilds without jobs will get the boss 83% of the time. That's probably the same as it is now without a rotation.

How is having an uncontested raid target 5 nights a week not sharing?

If you wipe on Vox and its your Vox night, try again until you do it or you guys call it. Maybe I wasn't super clear on that aspect of the rotation. It is an uncontested raid spawn for that guild on their night. I think its a fair compromise for guilds that pay to kill everything all the time super OCD style, while giving people who have jobs and only a few evening hours a night to play and raid too. More raid guilds are good for the server imo.

Having a rotation that allows mobs to stay up for several (and in some proposals 10-24) hours at a time is just begging for somebody to come in and take it. The whole point of a rotation from DBG's perspective is to reduce their involvement in mediating these issues. By allowing mobs to stay up that long and the issues that arise because of that, you're pretty much ensuring that DBG would actually end up having to put MORE resource into resolving the issues as they came up on a day to day basis.

so in 2015 we gotta get in line because the DEVS.............................. we have are lazy and worthless? SO where do we sign up to get on to kill raid targets......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................in 2015 we dont have instanced AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH what a joke no really what about smaller guilds who want to kill it do we put are names in a hat and pray or ? Just quit because this whole thing sounds like a giant waste of time.............

==
After you kill a Dragon/God, you can't engage that same Dragon/God for 72 hours or 3 kills, whichever comes first.

Any Dragon/God not killed within 3 hours of spawn becomes FFA. Does not count towards or affect the 72hour/3kill lockout in any way.
==

No need for a "rotation". No need for entry mobs to join a list. It would just be a community/GM enforced "lockout timer". There is plenty of room for competition as well as plenty of room to open up those mobs to a wide variety of guilds at least somewhat often.

a) This part is short - Skyp had previously bashed any idea of a rotation - ANY willingness to rotate even if non-preferable is better than his nothing previously.

b) Unlike Skyp, in the case of LJ I had a supposed friend of over a decade who claimed in PMs here and on my phone that any rotation would "fairly make sure that we were included" and "would be something that a guild that does scheduled raids like yours [he did not mention DHS] would be able to fit into" as part of the setup for it around 2 months after he had made those statements which turned those statements on their ear. (And while I will admit our friendship is more of benefit to me these days than it is to him, the beginnings of our relationship and ever since until now for OVER A DECADE has been completely of benefit to him - I've been helping him out for twelve years, including helping him get his place on the server - sure, I'm less "useful" now - but I watched out for him every time our paths crossed for a dozen years selflessly - its not odd to expect something in return finally, especially when he'd already claimed such as a want)

BTW - This isn't to say that some people weren't being awesome inside such negotiations - conveniently two people that were old friends were being douchebags and two people I barely knew were willing to go to bat for us. One seems to have quit however and the other gets drowned out, while being often having folks imply he's unreasonable/etc. (Dima/Gulfein - I've not once had a bad interaction with him, he seems to honestly do math and such to try to keep things fun for everyone [I imagine he's looking at the longrun of "Hey, if we scare off all the secondary guilds because they're bored - we won't have people to recruit from when we need them" from what people quote of his history - since he's a long view guy - but regardless, he's painted very negatively while he's been quite reasonable. Dare I say - Modest....)

c) I said it was a solid start - a step in the right direction, not that it's perfect. And at the time it was better than LJ rotation since LJ required "stealing a spawn" as an entry method where as this allowed scheduling anyhow.

It's SIMILAR, but far from identical - one of those changes (as mentioned above) was a huge sticking point that bothered me with the LJ rotation. That's been rectified in the LJ rotation recently, however - after I had posted that.

I still take issue with the fact that with a 6 hr spawn window every two weeks that mathematically you're talking about "B guilds" in the LJ rotation having 3/4 of their days turning into FFA days though (which truly FFA days are half of them already) - which is basically a spawn every two months - however.

I don't feel Daybeak would consider it "equitable" for three guilds to share 57 spawns in a two month period while the other three guilds in the rotation mathematically get 3 shared between them. More for the major guys? Sure - but that much more? LOL... even if they guaranteed (i.e. on a "B guild day" the spawn is left up all day for the guild in question) it every two weeks that's still 6 spawns a month for the three "B guilds" and 6-24 for the three "A guilds" to potentially get.

Potentially 20 times more is out of line for an "equitable" solution in my book, potentially 4 times more - however sounds quite reasonable. [Especially since for their days they're providing 4x the coverage B guilds are committed to 24h vs. 6h - 4x the effort for 4x the potential reward - the math is beautiful on it]

PS - Who are you anyhow Mr. Anon? (And again, as always - I'm Aszuth of Lockjaw - I just refuse to leave 16 yrs of history with the forums under this name so I still stick to the original one I used from when I first used the official forums)
PSS - I'm probably going on break EQ1 wise until Kunark at a minimum at this point. Need to have a conversation with leadership about an extended break being OK - but I don't see spending $60 (two accounts since my woman also plays and two months) to do 1 hr of challenging content by October as a good value.