Non-Raiding Necromancers

Where have you been for the last forty or so pages?

A bit of advice, not contradicting yourself would add a lot to your credibility.

Zakor, if discrediting me is what brings a smile to your face, have at it. The thing is, I am probably in agreement with you as far as the issues that have your blood pressure up, only in a more general fashion. This is a grievance list of mine. Maybe you might find some similarities.

Against all this haphazard decision making made by the dev team.

Against their reliance on pet guilds/chosen inner circle members of the player community, regardless of their bias, to do their jobs for them all the while ignoring the majority of the player community. Half of the misunderstandings seem to reflect on a dev team who do not play the very game they produce often enough to understand it. Maybe by design or that is just what the time/resources allotted results in.

Against token moves towards some big over arching issue like this new crusade to have mana management be the flavor of the week that "solve the problem" by only singling out a few classes or player demographics unfairly while for the most part ignoring the core of the issue. Apparently they believe in "Do something. Even if its wrong.", along with "If its not broken, fix it until it is".

Against fixing raid issues by surgery with a chainsaw style global tinkering with classes. If you want something addressed in raids, than do it by the raid content. If people have too much mana than make a "feature" that mitigates that with an AE, aura or just have everyone be half mana when they zone into an instance. The devs can create whatever they want. This is the best solution they could come up with???

Against the complete lack of proactive decision making that goes on, and how its devoid of transparency and for the most part, flips the bird to anyone who has ever given the dev team feedback in a beta, on the boards or by means other than their preferred way.... which I am guessing is a bottomless suggestion box with a paper shredder under it.

Against fixing "broken" content (of which was broken to them but we players just take is being how its supposed to be) taking ages to fix. Sometimes it seems to get fixed on the 5th of Never or whenever someone like Beimeith pesters them about it long enough to find a summer intern who is not out getting coffee or printer paper somewhere and have them actually attempt a fix.

Shall I go on, or do you just prefer to be a martyr who would prefer to heap scorn on those who are in your corner while you cry in your beer?

The problems with necros are just a symptom of what is transpiring on a broad scale across the game. Today its necros. Tomorrow it might be something else. Stupid doesn't discriminate. Honestly, it almost seems like the devs have no idea how to go forward anymore, so their only tool is to take away legacy aspects of the game since they can no longer project out what adding more to the game might do in the future. The resources are just spread way too thin to squeeze that last drop of blood out of cash cow. Most of us are buying into the "Wait and see" mentality of the staggered releases where people get some just dispensation, but for some others its too late for that. The damage is done. How does that really help anyone?

The devs do not always retest the data or if they do they often use the exact same premise/setup that was presented to them just to confirm that data. They still basically take it at face value. Many times this can lead to key big picture factors or circumstances being ignored because rather then reviewing the data as part of a bigger forest they to often get caught staring at a tree only. Case in point the idea that they could just change focus effects to no longer work for dots without any other adjustments. Everything needs to be considered when they make changes and often times they get caught up in just the vacuum of the data presented themselves as much as the presenter did.

I haven't logged into live since September 1st and my subs have expired so I haven't tested out everything first hand. Amplifying Aura used to have its damage amplified by overcrit mods, I was informed this is no longer the case. If in fact aura still is modified by overcrit then disregard my comments related to it. Same with the necro BP click, previously twincast boosted the effect and overcrit mods boosted the effect. You can say it was never intended to be this way and it seems that Aristo (or whomever it was who requested all the code change for dots) agrees however Chandrok tuned our bp click based on those facts. He posted as much in at least one beta forum regarding changes he made in RoF and I believe in VoA as well. So unless Chandrok comes out and recants those statements I think its fair for necros to ask for the BP click (for VoA, RoF and CoTF) to be retuned to be more base damage than it currently is since it is no longer modified or to have it moved to the effect 303 so it goes back to what is was doing. I understand how %'s work, thanks. But scenarios in game change, sometimes we are at 100% crit rates, sometimes we twincast, sometimes we have crit mods on, sometimes have 3 slot 3 aug dots on sometimes we have 12 so a flat % while big picture is accurate when looking at specific times its not as simple. There are multiple ways to look at data just as we talked about in the paragraph above. You can look at the trees and you can also look at the forest both are correct and should be considered. In this case I am looking at the trees (ie just the impact when the effect is up and under full burn) my estimate was high the total impact from all these changes (bp effect nerf, slot 3 as they currently are which we both think will change, siavonn's) look to be around a 10-15K impact to burn not the 20-30K I stated before. If you look at the total overall impact on 10 minute increments (the forest) then yes you are also close to correct with it being a 3-4% change for slot 3's and a 1% change from BP but how you frame data here plays a part. Saying its only a 3-5% loss sounds pretty harmless until you feel the consistent 10-15K drop in dps when you burn despite them both conveying what happened accurately.

The epic issue has come up in the community, again I am not even playing anymore and I still have heard about it. Its not a mantra that we are "balanced around" these factors. Fact is for the past 10+ years focus effects have critted for dots, our epic 2.5 has been 18% and not 10%, that our bp click damage was set based on twincast and overcrit amplifying it, our mana costs were set with the knowledge that we had lich, deathbloom and bloodmagic and on and on and on. These factors then impacted other stuff like us not getting twincast for dots for 4 years, like us not getting simply on demand spell twincast when we finally got it, like the % of spell power increase dots have received each expansion, like the AA lines or changes we have seen or not seen over the years. You have to be kidding me that we are not somewhat balanced around these factors. Regardless of it they were known about or intended all tuning since has been impacted by them working as they were. That doesn't mean you just leave them but IT DOES MEAN YOU DON'T JUST CHANGE THAT FACTOR and call it a day without then addressing the gap it leaves. For example dot spell power was boosted by the smallest margin ever in VoA because "necros were doing alright" according to Aristo, that comment is based on all the factors above being as they were. So yes we were balanced around them. So if one or some of those are going to change then the team MUST also then go back and adjust other things to compensate (unless the fix was to reduce power and not fix something just unknown or working in a manner that causes future issues) other wise they are breaking the class they are supposedly fixing. One also then needs to step back and say hmm, if everything was relatively balanced before this change, does changing this unintended aspect along with changing a bunch of other stuff to compensate really make sense or do more good then harm, considering we have limited time, resources and don't want to push people away with changes 10 years old? If yes then do it if not then don't.

Again, in the last year:

Nerf to pet runes 10+ year old spells.
Upcoming nerf to epic, 10+ year old item.
Nerf to necro BP click, 3+ year old item.
Nerf to deathbloom, 4+ year old AA. Had this change occurred when it came out, had this change occurred before our mana costs were set for the past few years, had this change occurred before 3-5 other classes got the same ability in some form, if other classes actually had to make choices and manage mana or endurance it would make sense.
Nerf to pet DA (this one was completely warranted but the effect should have been changed to do what it originally did, minus outside clicks or spells working on pets in the same manner.) 5+ year old nerf.
RB nerfed, 4+ year old nerf. This worked the exact same way from inception, it was conveyed and explained to eli exactly what it was doing. It was fine for 4+ years until someone found an exploit with proc buffs and then suddenly nerf it drastically since it was easier.
Nerf to pet focus, 9+? year old nerf.
Upcoming nerf to dot stacking, we all know this is coming at somepoint 14+ year old nerf. Swift dots put this to rest a long time ago but they were deemed bad in raids.

None of these changes addressed what the listed reason for them was.

and close to in the last year the RB nerf or was that in the last year? 4 years ago we were not desired in groups then they gave us swift dots, DB and RB to compensate. It worked! RB alone had me invited to groups. Well, swift dots have been nerfed (for raids), DB not nerfed with triple refresh rate, and RB nerfed to where i haven't been asked to have it up since it got nerfed. Speaking of RB, i was in guild hall last night testing blood magic. I had a full spread of dots up (12). RB was proc'ing about once every 12 casts. Is that working as intended?? Bad luck?? Might as well just take that away too since it's useless. So, all of the things we were given to be desireable in groups has been nerfed.

Still for the life of me can't understand why they picked on necros for this "mana as a resource" BS when we weren't even #1

My account expires in 12 days. That's how much time i have left in EQ unless in that time i hear some good news. I'm 45 and have way to much other stuff i can be doing with my free time than playing a game where they can just take away things for ridiculous reasons and reduce my pleasure playing.

If you seriously think RB was fine as is, making Necros easily better group healers than a priest class, then you are crazy. A passive aura that required no additional input from the player/group should never have been that strong.

nvm.

Archlich is dead... What does that tell you? There has been a grand total of 3 of us as of late

I will be the first to say beimieth, you found that "8percent" before any of us. There was no secret to be kept. That particular thing we do accept and expect to be fixed... However we know and you know how that will be addressed. I can assure you, it was news to us. Unless some one did find it and kept it to themself.

Chandrok said on average the click should add x amount total, we already talked about looking at the big picture and not just one case. ie raid bp, raid support and 5 things all timed together as the scenario you keep harping on. Chandrok again flat out stated our effect was adjusted downwards because twincast and overcrit were amplifying it. I will go by the dev who created the bp clicks words instead of the random dev who went to fix one thing and ended up changing 3 other random things as well as my support.

The total percent impact big picture does not tell the entire story, if you don't get that I can't help you. You can "yadda yadda yadda" over just about anything but the little details in the middle also are very informative depending on what you want to look at. It is just as helpful to look at parts of the entire picture as well, especially when say a mob only lives 1 or 2 minutes. Crazy of me to factor what impact it would have in that specific case being thats where it might be used most times and disregard the 8-9 minutes of afk time in my calculations.

Balance is a myth or at least perfect everything is intended balanced. There is only remaining relative to your respective role and other classes. The devs don't have to know the ins and outs of everything in game to maintain this. Nor should they be expected to with everything they have to do. It would be nice but lobbing at the wall as a quick fix does the trick sometimes even if its not the preferred method. One needs to decide if its a mountain or a mole hill. Mountains (changes to large aspects or long standing abilities fit here) should be handled by looking at the forest and by looking at the tree that might be an issue they should also get a few eyes on the matter (like aristo talking to chandrok about he bp or eli talking to aristo about mana for group spells). For mole hills being that time and resources are limited sometime lobbing a dart at reasonable changes works just fine.

No matter how much you bait me I am not going to type down a breakdown to my numbers. Which you could then in turn spin against us another time you feel like snooping into something you want or don't like others having. But my numbers are correct when under burn which is what I am talking about impact wise.

Not everything I am saying relates specifically to just the changes you indirectly had an impact on.


Lets let this thread focus on what its intent was the Deathbloom nerf on groupers and not talk about your part or explanation of others.

I trust that the Necro I compared parses with, who has traditionally done parses for the necro community, didn't know about it.

Whether or not other Necros did their own parses and kept it to themselves, I am not as sure about. Every class as those that will keep bugs secret.

I don't need your numbers Forcallen. I worked them out for myself, and I am quite positive they are correct, and yours are not. But, as you said, this thread was talking about DB.

The reason you have dislike thrown your way is because you come off as the guy that sits at his front window watching and reporting on what everyone else in his neighborhood is doing. I could care less since the game became no longer fun to play but that is the perception you give whether you mean to or not.

Amorcen

I never got an answer from Blightz, Slasher, or Battleaxe. But I wanted to pose this question to Beimeith as well. What sir, are your credentials? You bandy about with arrogance and pomp, but your name isn't in red. Also, you have a way of being a part of getting this thread off topic. If you have as much influence as some have said, why not use that to get some devs to start a discussion with us? Or do you just enjoy stirring the pot? Honest questions, all of them.

Beimeith is the self styled Godfather of Everquest. He even had a signature to some effect, since this is after all...his game. He is very good with math but comes up short on tact and interpersonal skills. Typical of most people in STEM fields. The numbers say they are right, and many times they are, but that doesn't solve the fact that most people don't like being corrected in public (especially in front of their friends or their SO but Beimeith would be the type to do it anyway).In the case of Forcallen, a PM could of worked, but then Beimeith would miss a chance to further profess his mathematical acumen that he believes surpasses that of the developers.

He is of that breed that more or less tore EQ down to a science in the top elite guilds to further cement their dominance over everyone else who were foolish enough to think that EQ is "just a game" and is supposed to be "fun".They won lots of raids, so in that regard he gained some respect for his number crunching in order to min/max and also to find bugs or errors on part of the dev team. As a result, he believes he knows the game better than they do and he might even be right. Parsing of spells, DPS, etc have all come about because of this. EQ probably would not be what it is today if not for those that logged on to EQ while loading up spread sheets and compiling algorithms. For better or for worse.

Honestly, if he was a real red name, people would probably forgive him for putting the screws to a class or whatever because that is what the devs do. That is their job. In Beimeith's case, it is getting nerfed by a fellow player, which puts him in the category of the boss's sycophant lacky, shop floor whistle blower, the neighborhood busy body or the prison snitch. Every society needs one, and some are even respected...but very few are liked.

I give this post about maybe 2 hours tops before Beimeith personally reports it for trolling and gets it removed, but since you asked...there you go.

I lol'd, thanks.

Being a numbers guide doesn't take away from his credibility at all, nor does casting him as a member of the big bang theory erode anything he is saying. However......

I can assure you your numbers for slot 3 augs and bp click while under burn are completely wrong. Dots are not your specialty, its ok.

What is it with people that they don't answer questions for themselves and allow for other people to answer in their stead? /sigh. Maybe tomorrow we will get some one to discuss how the Death Bloom changes are affecting the Non-Raiding Necromancer. Maybe it will even be a Developer. Good night peeps!