Non-Raiding Necromancers

Again, could we do as much as possible to stay on topic here please? I understand a deep and contentious topic has been opened up and it is precisely for that reason that THAT discussion should be kept to its own thread.

In regards to your comment on a "group only" version of death bloom, at this point I would take that even if the cost is one of even more buttons to press. The original death bloom had stagnated for years, many of us felt it needed an upgrade, not a nerf; if creating a separate group version for us allows us to regain parity in terms of man regen with other DPS classes and sets the groundwork for improvement over time, I couldn't help but see it as a positive move forward.

An alternative which has been proposed would be to dramatically (i.e. down to 3 minutes) lower the reuse time on blood magic, something which would be very much in line with the class and prove less work to implement. At this point though the community *really* needs some positive news from the SOE side..

i think a group verison of death bloom would be a step in the right direction for sure..would it add another button? yes
but i would prefer to push another button in group settings than not have it all..i agree totally with shaard the necro community need's some postitive new's from soe mgmt.

Wouldn't it make more sense to put in a RAID version of Death Bloom, and leave the one that everyone bought as the group version?

I just hate how more and more necros are getting everything split up. This spell for raids this spell for group. This AA for raids this AA for group. This buff is for raids this buff is for group. In some cases it can't be helped or its really not a big deal. But considering other classes for the most part are not split like this and that there are other options that don't continue this tread of splitting things into raid only or group only I would rather go in that direction. Again being a raiding necro does not exclude you from grouping or soloing, in fact even when I was raiding I still spent far more play time grouping and soloing. Just as their are many pure groupers who may one day choose to raid more.

To me this just adds to future issues as it creates an artificial divide for the class of groupers want this and raiders want that and at times this could lead to the class cannibalizing or canceling out each others concerns or needs, when we are limited to only a certain number of AA's and spells with each release. Instead we should continue to lobby for stuff that benefit the class as a whole in any situation, ie reverting the nerf entirely or changing the recast to 3-4 min or changing the recourse or changing the recast timer of bloodmagic. Again the entire premise of this nerf "mana as a resource for necros in a raid setting because of deathbloom" is false to begin with. So I prefer not tumbling further down the rabbit hole based on a inaccurate premise.

Since it has been stated many times that this change has pretty much no effect on raiders why even bother with splitting it up?

The only way to affect the raiding aspect of necros and death bloom is to take away the AA. At this point, i wont even click it unless i died therefore this little nerf has forced me to realize i don't even really need death bloom. You know what that says about death bloom? Death bloom DOES NOT need to be nerfed in the FIRST PLACE! And if i'm really hurting on mana I can bug a BST, CLR, or Mage. Death bloom is the tiniest fraction of mana flying around in raids.

The point is DB has been wrongly identified as a problem.

NERFS are bad anyway for the most , should leave group necro ( and other class ) away from those nerf ( s ).

raid necro can get all the time rods, and other buffs as well .

can a mod please move this thread to the caster forums where it belongs?

Just to shed some more light on the premise that deathbloom had to be nerfed because it created an unfair advantage for necros. The premise that necros have something that allows them to not manage mana when others don't have such abilities and thus must manage (adjust how they play based on mana) their casting in raids.

First I used the top 10 geared members on Magleo as a source for my first comparisons, far from perfect I know, but we can get a feel for whats going on in game with the classes as far as gear, augs, powersources, etc. I stuck with dps classes as I don't need to muddy the waters with healers I don't fully know enough about.

• The top ten nuking classes (based on mana) average around 101-102K mana pools. They mostly all fall at 450+ heroic intel range. I was a little shocked to see that no one in the top ten mana rankings used a mana proc aug in primary, might be a ranking thing like necros stat padding with non epic, tending to stick with stat augs instead. I was also a little shocked that less then half were using the specialization augs considering their value over pure stats but again this might be a stat padding deal for magleo. Almost all augs were based on mana and heroic intel. Almost everyone had the shawl aug with mana proc.

• The top ten necros (based on mana) average 92,688 mana pools, with epic removed which is how they play in game. They fall anywhere from 230-375 heroic intel. Also tend to fill primary with stat augs, deaggro augs, heal augs or mana proc. Most augs are chosen based on hps, heroic stamina, ac/balance, heroic int. Most had the shawl aug with mana proc.

So about a 9-10K difference in mana pool(plus the mana pool buff differences that necros are blocked from using due to self only buffs), 4-8 less mana regen from heroics, less specialization augs and fewer mana proc augs when compared the top 10 on magleo. Again this isn't an exact picture of everyone in game but its a general feel of whats going on with raid dps mana users and their mana pools.

Now lets look at regen abilities. Most can just be excluded because they are shared such as druid buffs, druid clicks, beastlord buffs, paragon, bard songs and pulses, enchanter clicks and buffs, mod rods, passive mana regen AA lines, worn mana regen, circle of mana auras, shared clicky mana regen buffs, tribute mana prez, aa mana prez, gear mana prez, etc. But they are a huge part of what goes on in a raid setting so lets at least see what portion of the pie they make up, relative to the class specific "burst mana" tools. I am sure I will miss a few of these buffs, aa or clicks that all factor in to live play. I also am sure some of these conflict but most don't and I will treat the classes equally in regards to stacking so any stacking impact will be equal for them all even if its slightly off from what is seen on a live server.

1. Granite Bark: 44 regen a tic.
2. Spiritual Evolution: 70 regen a tic.
3. Knowledge of the Past: 77 regen a tic, might be higher now.
4. Moltek's Lively (pulse) 99 a tic when you factor for recast.
5. Chorus of Salarra (not sure if this stacks with pulse) 106 regen a tic.
6. Voice of Foresight(Exclusive, to non necros): 110 regen a tic.
7. Forsakenside (Exclusive, to necros): 233 regen a tic.
8. Focused Paragon of Spirit(can only have one paragon buff at a time): 78 regen a tic, iirc this is a 3 minute reuse. Number can go up or down if 3 min reuse is wrong.
9. Paragon of Spirit (can only have one buff at a time): 109 regen per tic, iirc this has a 10 minute reuse. Regen would go up or down if 10 min reuse is wrong.
10. Large Mod Rod: 150 mana regen a tic, when you factor in recast
11. Worn mana regen: 35 regen a tic, iirc
12. Passive AA mana regen: 40 regen a tic, iirc.
13. Second Spire of Enchantment: 45 regen a tic when you factor in recast and duration.
14. Quiet Miracle: 600 mana a tic when you factor in recast.
15. Group Spirit of the Black Wolf: 50 regen a tic, when on, don't know recast. Also -15% mana cost during duration for detrimental spell.

(Class Specific)

1. Deathbloom(necro): pre-nerf 560 regen a tic, post-nerf 168 regen a tic.
2. Bloodmagic(necro): not regen but spells cast from hps at a multiplier penalty. IIRC 2 min duration ranging from 250% to 500% hp cost multiplier, 18 min reuse iirc. Hard to exactly say what this equates to with the penalty and long recast.
3. Zombieskin (necro): 11 regen a tic, stripped by deathbloom or damage so never up for very long.
4. Bucolic Harvest(wizard): 319 regen a tic.
5. Harvest of Druzzil(wizard): 285 regen a tic.
6. Armor of Stonescale(wizard): 22 regen a tic, stripped by damage.
7. Claw of the Icewing(wizard,procs mini harvest): xxx regen a tic, 15% proc rate of 1k mana but not sure how often its used in raids.
8. Self only Mod rod (mage): ???
9. Gather Magnitude(mage): 186 regen a tic.
10. Phantasmal Guardian(mage): 48 per tic, stripped by damage.

So again assuming this all stacks, which I realize is probably a wrong assumption, we can still get a relative idea of what portion of regen both shared and the class specific lines are. Any errors regarding the stacking of these effects (or not knowing the exact recast time for some abilities) make it so the class specific mana regen lines would be a bigger part of the pie, so keep that in mind. Any impact these errors have are being applied equally to all 3 classes which negates any real impact relative to each other. Except as I said when finding out what portion of mana regen the specials make up in a raid setting overall.

• Regen for wizards less specials: 1,635 regen a tic. This ignores any benefit from Claw of the Icewing and any mana procs from shawl aug/mana proc augs.
• Regen for mages less specials: 1,661 regen a tic. This ignores any mana procs from shawl aug/mana proc augs.
• Regen for necros less specials: 1,747 regen a tic. This ignores any mana procs from shawl aug/mana proc augs.

• Regen for wizards with specials: 2,239 regen a tic.
• Regen for mages with specials(not sure if they have a self only mod rod which isnt factored in): 1,847 regen a tic.
• Regen for necros with specials: pre-nerf 2,307 regen a tic, post-nerf 1,915 regen a tic. This ignores Bloodmagic impact which again is hard to factor in with its penalties and their impact on when its used.

TL;DL so what the hell does all this man. Basically on average in raid settings nukers have about 10K more in their mana pool due to gear, aug and powersource selections because necros still use their epic and because some mana buffs are blocked from self only necro buffs. The relative mana regen among the 3 mana dps classes is fairly close, like only a few hundred regen difference at the most (mages are the lowest but I might be missing something related to a self mod rod and possibly more efficient nuke costs). This is excluding claw of the icewing and bloodmagic benefits, tribute/worn/aa mana prez, circle of mana effects, druid form - 15%mana cost benefits, potion of harvest clicks, mana proc augs, specialization augs, various mana return clickies, various manafree clicks, and a few other things I am probably forgetting.


So what we have is:
One class who has a 93K mana pool and can regen at 2,307 regen a tic under the maximum circumstances (pre nerf) or 1,915 regen (post nerf). Who are left with lots of mana in almost any scenario because they can't dump their resources for improved performance, this isn't their limiting factor for dps outside of sustained. This class is told despite having a similar mana pool and mana regen to other dps mana users they are not treating their "mana as a resource" because they use the same spells over and over in raids in any setting (burst or sustained, different specialized spells in the group game) and still have mana in almost any case in raids.
Two other classes who have 103K mana pools and have mana regen from 1,847-2,239 regen tic under the maximum circumstances. Who are almost always out of mana in any scenario because they can dump their resources for improved performance, this is their limiting factor both in burst and sustained. These classes again have similar mana pool size and mana regen to the class above. However, they apparently are treating their "mana as a resource" because despite also using the same spells over and over in any raid setting (burst or sustained, group or raid setting) they go out of mana in most cases during raids.

How can the first class be told they need to "manage their mana as a resource again" when the other 2 classes basically have the exact same resources (mana pool and mana regen) and are doing the exact same thing in regards to spells used? Just because they exhaust the exact same resources for added benefit in their specialty of burst?

If deathbloom was nerfed more when it first came out it would make sense(not after 2 nerfs and 4 years of stagnation). If the other two classes where not in the same ballpark regarding regen it would make sense. If the other classes didn't do the same thing, in regards to spell choice (ie actually not using high dps mana hog spells in favor of more efficient spells at times), in any scenario this might make sense. If other classes did not have equivalent mana regen abilities added into the game it would make sense. But because none of this happened, because other classes don't manage anything, because other abilities were added this change makes zero sense big picture wise.

So at best the nerf should be reverted entirely. At worst Deathbloom should be 4-5 minute recast or Bloodmagic recast time should be dropped down drastically.

You missed a few things:

Improved Familiar for Wizard is 30/tick

Youalso have to account for the long cast times on our harvests. Spell harvest is 12 seconds, and Druzzil is 6. It won't reduce them by a -huge- amount, but it does lower the average a bit.

Claw is cast anytime we aren't using Improved Twincast, so nearly constantly. The mana is 1400 not 1k, at a rate of 15% it is an average of 210 mana per cast. It is cast approximately every 9 seconds, so ~140 mana per tick. Note that this spell was designed specifically to be mana efficient, which is why it has a lower cost as well as a decent sized chance to proc mana returns.

Mages have some other stuff as well but I don't know it by name. Mage regen is really high.

You also can't just compare regen to regen, you have to compare spell costs, since that often affects what levels the regens are set. Shamans have infinite mana pretty much, but their spells also cost more than anyone else because of it.

So being the expert on all things EQ what are the spells that wizards chain cast in a raid setting? What about mages?

Ill get back to you on necros.

On a burn, Ethereal Weave, (only 2 casts), Ethereal Incandescence, Ethereal Hoarfrost, and Cloudburst Thunderbolt. When not burning, Claw of the Flamewing, Ethereal Incandescence, and Cloudburst Thunderbolt. If mana becomes an issue, (which it does the longer the fight goes), switch Ethereal Incandescence to Gosik's Fire and/or Magmatic Vent, (though using Rains requires retiming since it has a long recast, and generally isn't a good idea on a raid unless it is a single target that won't be pushed). Some Wizards may use other spells such as weave, but it isn't really cost effective to do so outside of burning.

I don't know what spells Mages cast. I defer most things Mage to PMJ if you know who that is.


Also, Black Wolf isn't 15% mana preservation. It is 9-15% it is a random effect. Similarly, Raid level worn detrimental Mana preservation is 1-22% for Wizards and Mages. It is 1-25% for Necromancers because you use Tribute, which is higher than Raid level focus for some reason.

Wizards and Mages also usually use Glyph of Lost Secrets, which is 1-35% preservation. Glyph of Cataclysm does increase our sustained damage, but Lost Secrets is way better for sustained.

The LDoN Specialization augs are 2% fixed savings. The new ones from CotF are 2.25%. Specialization skill savings is (Skill / 20) + 1 = Fixed % Savings. (LDoN augs add 40 points, the new ones add 45).

Lastly, (for now), when Wizards burn we use Prolonged / Arcane Destruction, which -increases- mana costs by 1-30%. This also blocks the mana preservation effects of Black Wolf and Lost Secrets (Neither of which should be used on a burn), but -does not- block Specialization skill savings. This is why we burn through so much mana at the start, our costs are increased by a lot since it blocks preservation.

I will reactive my gold account if you add a group version of DB that is at least as good as the one taken away.

for all you people complaining about multiple buttons to push, are you really going to whine about such trivial things in the face of such a massive nerf? Let's collectively push sony to give us back the major nerf, and then we can later push on minor things.

So ignoring all mana prez from gear, buffs, tribute, augs, aura's and AA(including negaitve impact from PD). And ignoring necros have always been the best sustained class going out of mana long after everyone else relative wise. And that necros have always been the best or second best in combat mana regen class there is.

Wizards expend around 77K mana when under burn.
Necros expend around 37K mana when under burn.

So just above double the mana for 2 - 2.5 times the dps in 60 seconds or under. Then if you do adjust your spells (which I don't remember seeing until 2 or 3 minutes into a fight) the rate of expenditure becomes much closer. Considering you are burst and dump mana for better performance. Verse necros being sustained and not able to dump mana for more performance. Seems relative.

So again blindly looking at 3 classes.

Class A has roughly 100K mana and regens roughly 2K mana a tic. They pretty much use the same spells for 2-3 minutes in a raid.

Class B has roughly 100K mana and regens roughly 2K mana a tic. They pretty much use the same spells for 2-3 minutes in a raid.

Class C has roughly 100K mana and regens roughly 2K mana a tic. They pretty much use the same spells for 2-3 minutes in a raid.

Why would only one of these classes have their regen nerfed because the are told "they are not using mana as a resource" when the other two continue on with similar abilities, pools and play styles? Expenditure plays a small part but you also have to look at the reward for that level of expenditure. You also must look at the nature of the classes dps and what factors limit that dps. You also must look at the respective role of the classes taking into account spikes of on demand burst, smaller spike but longer sustained or smallest on demand spike/forced ramp time highest sustained.

Because just like in a large business... if a department doesn't use up all their allotment of cash, they are told obviously they don't need that much money and their budget is cut.

/sarcasm off

Good news.

Mage self rod is the same as the large rod, though if going beyond the first rod you have to factor in mana cost. 125-ish infinitely.
Water form is 36
Symbiosis is 50
Thaumatize is variable. Rk 2 should work out to somewhere around 130, I assume Rk3 is better.
Mana reserve is 12k, I think every 30 minutes. Need to be low mana, but shouldn't effect it that much. 40.

Gather is refreshed by Forceful Rejuvination. Not sure on the timing and don't feel like looking it up. Maybe add another 40. But Guard doesn't stack with Druid skin, so probably just cancels out there.

And you can't really ignore Blood Magic. It get more powerful, though more dangerous, the faster you use mana. However, it could easily be worth 30-50k+ mana before it really becomes dangerous, provided the there's someone who can throw a couple heals on the necro.

But all of that, while interesting, doesn't really mean anything. It's what you do with the mana that matters.

That's ignoring a whole lot. It would be like saying "so ignoring focus effects, crits, Auras, and AAs, let's compare base damage."

The comparison is worthless without factoring in everything else.

Tribute mana pres 1-25% is only partially effective in group content. It wont work for swift DoT's because of minimum duration requirement. It also wont work for swarm pats because there not a DoT. So it works for some DoT in group game but not for the primary group focused spells a necro uses in groups.

This is a tangent. As this should never happen.If you have a budget...spend it but don't exceed.

Repair parts. Office Supplies. Fuel vouchers. Pre-paid whatever. Anything you can buy today and squirrel away for a rainy day without clearing it with the Man otherwise.

There is never a reason to not balance your budget. A surplus is not balance unless you are servicing a prior debt. Equate that to EQ however you want.