Non-Raiding Necromancers

No, they aren't, I assure you.

Faycites: Damage Per Tick: Truncate(Base/(#ticks + 1)) * Critical Multiplier.

Pyre of Marnek Faycite = 1571/(5+1) = 261.83333333333333333333333333333 -> 261 damage/tick non-crit. Your maximum critical multiplier is 885% = 261*8.85 = 2,309 damage per tick on a crit under full burn. A tick is 6 seconds, so, 2,309 / 6 = 384.83 DPS.

Currently it is broken, and it is doing 0 damage on a non-crit, and the non-crit damage on a crit. That means you are losing 2,309 - 261 = 2,048 damage / tick, or 2,048 / 6 = 341.3 DPS.


Your BP click USED to work the same as Faycites, but the crit part was removed so it does the non-crit value always:

Defiling Power = 33333 / (14+1) = 2,222.2 -> 2,222 damage/tick non-crit. 2,222 * 8.85 = 19,664 damage/tick on a crit under full burn. 19,664 / 6 = 3,277.3 DPS. It now only does the non-crit value, so: 19664 - 2222 = 17,442 / 6 = 2,907 DPS lost for 90 seconds.

You can double it with Twincast, but even then, it is still a small portion of your total damage, and your a sustained class anyway, not a burn class, so I'm not really even sure why we're talking about 90s burns at all.

Last post on the matter since this doesn't pertain to DB.

Both those formulas are incomplete for the circumstances I mentioned but thanks for the assurance on your accuracy yet again.

No, they aren't. I had tests both pre-and post change and those are entirely accurate, but please, tell me what you think I am missing, I am always willing to learn something.

My guess is that you are mixing up your spell effects.

Forcallen is best necro at mathes.

Honestly probably best necro at dps too.

Probably does not matter to you but I would never argue his mathes. Yours are suspect and lowballed.

Why? Because you ask questions of people who don't have to answer to anyone and frequently reserve that right. In essence you are asking for a courtesy of which they do not have to honor, and if they were, it might have happened much sooner than 40+ pages. So what you are rewarded with is usually nothing or perhaps some sarcasm at best.

As for the rest:

Don't bother logging in and checking for an answer. You won't get one. No sarcasm. This really seems like one of those Handed Down from the Mountain Top type decisions. The devs are more than likely just waiting for this thread to die off so they won't have to bother responding in any shape or form, if even just to lock it.

You failed to double the damage for twincast and also failed to add bard potency that is another 232 damage a tick.

I'm getting 8563 damage 1454 DPS for Marnek prenerf and 164 DPS post nerf a drop of 1290 DPS.

Now go through every Fire and Magic DoT except Shadow and do same math of type 3 + Potency. Then do same for every non fire magic DoT with type 3 and Bard second spire. Then go and do same with shadow using type 3 and Class robe click.

In no way shape or form is this nerf just a 1% reduction. The nerf to Marnek alosne is over a 1% reduction in necromancer DPS. The nerf to class robe is around a 5% reduction in necro burn DPS all by itself. But this nerf impacts allot more than just two Dot's it impacts every single non Swift DoT cast by a necromancer.

1) Try reading my post. I said at the bottom to double it with Twincast....

2) Bard songs are not the same effect as type 3's. They are separate effects.

In 6 years he didn't figure out your Epic 2.5 adds 18% crit chance instead of 10? And it took 1 night of parsing for me to find it? I think you have it backwards.

You sense your doom approaching.

You say double the damage for twincast well after you claimed prenerf DPS was only 348 and you ignored bard song potency that works exactly like VoA and RoF necromancer Robes and is the buff version of type 3 worn effect. The result is you understate the DPS lost to change in these effects by roughly 300%.

You are very clearly understating the impact of the changes made.

No, I was talking about what it was when not burning before. If I give numbers for sustained, you complain and say it's worse for groupers that don't burn. If I give numbers for burn, you claim its worse for raiders that are burning, lol.

I have not understated anything. It is 1-4% depending what mods you have on. Closer to 1% on a burn, moving up to 4% when not burning.

The bard song is not "the buff version of type 3 worn effect." It is a completely different, separate effect, they have nothing to do with each other.

SPA 124 = Variable Focus, no Crit, (but it does). Worn focus / Bard Aria. Does not stack. 1 worn, 1 spell, 1 AA.
SPA 273 = DoT Critical Chance. Stacks.
SPA 286 = Fixed Damage Add, no Crit. (BP Click, Bard Potency). Does not stack. 1 worn, 1 spell, 1 AA.
SPA 296 = Incoming Variable Focus, Crits. (Druid's Skin to Seedlings). Does not stack.
SPA 297 = Incoming Fixed Damage Add, Crit. (Coruscating Shadow). Does not stack.
SPA 302 = Fixed Focus, Crits. (No current mods for DoTs exist). Stacking unknown, but probably doesn't.
SPA 303 = Fixed Damage Add, Crits. (Faycite augs). Does not stack.
SPA 375 = Critical Damage, Stacks.
SPA 399 = Twincast.
SPA 413 = Spell Effectiveness, Crits. (Enchanter Amplifying Aura). Stacking unknown, but probably doesn't.

Step 1:

Non-Critical Hit = Truncate(basedamage * SPA124) + Truncate(basedamage * SPA296) + Truncate(basedamage * SPA302) + Truncate(SPA303 / ($baseticks + 1)) + Truncate(SPA286 / ($baseticks +1)) + SPA287 + SPA413

Critical Hit = Truncate((Truncate(basedamage * SPA413) * SPA375) + (truncate(truncate(basedamage * SPA413) * SPA124) * SPA375) + (truncate(truncate(basedamage * SPA413) * SPA302) * SPA375) + (truncate(truncate(basedamage * SPA413) *SPA296) * SPA375) +
(SPA297 * SPA375) + (truncate(SPA303 / (baseticks + 1)) * SPA375)) +
truncate(SPA286 / ($baseticks + 1))


Step 2:

Non-Critical Hit * SPA 399.

Critical Hit * SPA 399

Step 3:

Critical Hit * SPA 273 + Non-Critical Hit * (1-SPA 273)

= Total Average Damage, per tick.

Step 4:

Total Average Damage / 6 = DPS.

Its bad for both. You have completely understated impact on burn by dropping key things from your numbers, Those being potency and twincast, Though you do mention twincast at very end in passing after you already stated numbers without twincast. Potency is almost equal to damage provided by type 3 aug for Marnek and maybe greater then damage provided by type 3 augs for other DoT's.

A 1-4% reduction in DPS simply doesn't hold water in ether burn are sustained. Yes post change these effects may well fall into that 1-4% you claimed and will perform better in sustained then in burn. Prior to the changes though there % impact was much higher.

You're splitting hairs on bard songs. Prior to the changes type 3 and potency/bardspire/robe worked exactly the same way. After the change type 3 augs don't work on non crits at all and work exactly like potency/bardspire/robe on crits.

They were simply intended to be buff and worn versions of the same thing.

Damn 30 minute edit limit.

Non-Crit for Step 1 =

Non-Critical Hit = Truncate(basedamage * SPA124) + Truncate(basedamage * SPA296) + Truncate(basedamage * SPA302) + Truncate(SPA303 / ($baseticks + 1)) + Truncate(SPA286 / ($baseticks +1)) + SPA287 + SPA413*

*(Truncate(basedamage * SPA413) * SPA124) - Truncate(basedamage * SPA124) + (Truncate(basedamage * SPA413) * SPA296) - Truncate(basedamage * SPA296) + (Truncate(basedamage * SPA413) * SPA302) - Truncate(basedamage * SPA302)


(You have to calculate each step of 413 separately for non-crits or else you get a rounding error).

No, I haven't. I said exactly how that single effect worked because he kept claiming they were all 1k+ dps, when they are not. Not even on a full burn do Faycites reach 1k dps. I just posted the complete formulas* for you. Calculate it yourself. Test it in game. If you find any problems, tell me exactly how to reproduce it.

The 1-4% comes after the complete calculation, do it yourself.

They are not intended to be the same thing. They are different effects that are intended to work differently. One is supposed to crit, one is not.


*Note that Faycites, SPA303 are still broken, so the above formula is incorrect. For Non-crits it is 0. For Crits, it is the Non-crit formula.

But its clear the DPS loss from Marnek is over 1000 DPS on burn when all factors are added in. Its also several times larger then that for Shadow when necromancer class robe click is factored in. For other DoTs it close to a thousand for some DoT's and less then a thousand for others.

If you view his claims as incorrect when he clearly talked about things other then type 3 augs. Then your claims are incorrect as well for ignoring those other things and only focusing on one aspect of what he said that being type 3 augs.

We had two effects that worked exactly the same way for years. Then once one was changed it broke the other. Every piece of tuning information indicates the two effects were intended to work the same. Robe click is clearly tuned to do more then its current damage post change. Potency's impact on fire and magic DoT's being roughly equal to type 3 augs impact on the same DoT's seems to be a clear example of Potency being intended to equal the impact of type 3 augs..

Your claim that they are not intended to do the same thing has zero factual evidence to support that claim. Infact the opposing view that these effects are intended to be the same has very solid examples of why it is correct.

Thank you for reporting the nerf and hopefully getting it reverted back. Please leave now so that this thread can get back to the main discussion.

Argue about the DoT nerf in the thread in the caster forums so this one does not get locked.

As Menown just also requested, PLEASE take the dot change discussion to another thread.

This thread is about the impact of the death bloom change on grouping necromancers. Whilst I agree with the *spirit* of the discussion in that the overall compound effect of all these changes has been to make the game less fun for players of the necromancer class, the minutiae of the math in regards to DPS is irrelevant to THIS THREADS TOPIC.

Oh and I think that you will find that for groupers, the people who make the game are the friends and people who we play with. When you have a mathematically perfect game, I think that you may discover this fact too.

Thank you for the courtesy answer, good sir / madam!

I play a leveling 92 necro. I don't have the top gear or even half of the AAs. I took 2.5 years off from the game and returned about 2-3 weeks before the expansion launch. I have a parse program and run it sometimes, but prefer to spend my time playing rather than figuring out the ins and outs of all this data stuff.

So, I don't have the technical data or capability to discuss, with backing, that part of the game. But I can tell that the changes to Deathbloom have disrupted my group and solo game. I can also tell when people are posting stuff without regard to being held accountable for what they post. I'll continue ask questions and make posts, with relevancy, to the thread topic. That, after all, is my right to exercise. I will also continue to call people out for them exercising their right not to answer while posting other craptastic information.

I'm fine with believing that this thread is actually being read, at least by Piestro, if not some others SOE people who just aren't responding. I'm fine with believing it even if it is completely nieve of me to do so. I don't see this thread as a waste of time and energy until people post stuff that isn't about what this thread topic is. Sure, I could be wrong. They may not be reading it at all. I've been wrong before. I'll be wrong again in the future. Life goes on. This is one of the avenues set up to voice such issues, after all.

I do appreciate your rundown of Beimeith and your critique of my post. I also apriciate your stance on the changes to Deathbloom and the other stuff you stated in post #904 as well. Still, I prefer to get the answers from those that are asked, or glaringly not answered while they continue to run their diarea mouth. Thanks, though.

I too missed your footnote comment regarding twincast which was absent from your formulas. Considering under burn 10 of 12 faycites will be twinned and that since we are talking with enc support many times 11 or 12 will twincast. Doubling the dps tends to have an impact on the numbers for the circumstances I was talking about. Not something I would mention as an afterthought in the footnotes. Not including twincast understates the impact under burn that I was speaking to.

You also assume max overcrit for the entire duration of the robe click which again is not accurate. The robe click lasts 90 seconds (to keep things neat I also looked at faycites for 90 seconds while under burn) which covers two intervals of overcrit levels if everything is timed well, not a flat amount the entire time. Again not something to just dimiss. This slightly overstates the impact on burn.

Based on the updates to your formulas with the above mentioned factors in addition to the current loss from aura (which I am told is still borked just like slot 3 augs) and the changes to Siavionn in total a raid necro is losing roughly 10-15K dps on average for the 90 seconds of peak burn (900,000 - 1,350,000 of damage less the small unmodified non crit being added currently). Which is what Sid was talking about when adding in the other factors.

I chose to look at 90 seconds because thats the duration of the robe click and thats the duration of our top two burn intervals. Just because we are a sustained class doesn't mean our burn phase doesn't play a big part on our overall sustained. Knowing the impact to burn, which I was talking about by continually saying under burn, tells us some things that a flat % that encompasses lots of pure recast down time doesn't. Just like everyone else what we do under our burn phase accounts for a large portion of our sustained efforts. The nature of necro dps is fighting to stack/weave/mix in all those "tiny" portions of dps (x amount of dots, x amount of clickies/AA during global recast, timing x amount of things for the largest benefit, changing cast order, weave order, burn timing all based on fight length/situation, slot 3 augs, support mods, support clicks, etc) , that you dismiss as no big deal because individually they dont look like much, so the sum total of all those 30 small factors equal our performance. I fight tooth and nail for 100 dps here or 500 dps there to be added in to maximize my performance. I don't idly take hits of 3K here, 5k there and another 5K there lightly when relative to others my class was not broken to their relative role. Especially when the intended target was the bard song which is probably the smallest factor of everything that was impacted.

You keep harping on the bp boost provided. Again Chandrok spoke to twincast and overcrit modifying it being known, considering he designed them I'll take his word on the matter not your feelings or another devs actions in regards to breaking it while tweaking something else. Chandrok spoke to averaging out the boost to be close to his target. He never said its should be X damage max under the most extreme circumstances and then be way less then that all other times. This means factoring in necros that dont have max dot crit rate AA, don crit boosts or epic. This means factoring in necros that dont have max overcrit AA, dont have every activated overcrit AA or that don't use every overcrit mod. This means factoring in times necros don't have full support boosting crit rate and overcrit mods. He also tuned these bp clicks based on what was in the game at the time. Chandrok doesn't predict the future so he can't account for passive overcrit added in after the fact, he can't account for activated overcrit being added in after the fact, he can't account for on demand or increased twincast rates being added in after the fact, he can't account for support classes adding activated dot crit rate boosts being added in after the fact, he can't account for support classes adding activated overcrit mods after the fact. Unless he continually goes back and adjusts these clicks over and over every time the factors from the past change, which is a waste of time and effort.


Once again to get back to the topic of the thread at hand, Deathbloom. Eli will you consider changing this to a 4 or 5 minute timer? This restores the ability to the point of helping groupers as it should. And reduces its reuse in raids for the only time its really defining which is after multiple deaths in a short time frame. Mana as a resource for necros in a raid (which I still totally disagree with unless every mana burst ability is also nerfed for raids) is not solely because of Deathbloom. Mana regen in raids as was pointed out is a cumulative effect of necros not being able to dump mana for more dps and 20 other abilities boosting everyones regen to the point of it being a resource for no one. Just because some classes can dump mana for improved performance does not equate to them "managing mana as a resource". Other options like "a group only version" of Deathbloom only adds another button and confusion for basically no reason. Unless all the other burst mana abilities/spells will be changed to have group and raid versions.