#UniteThePVPPlayers: Movement - Immunity and Farming

Balance powers and damage to NOT do crazy damages. PVP <> PVB (Player vs Boss)
Judging from the ongoing power balance in PvE, damage will only go up. The devs appear to have taken the strategy of never nerfing anything. They only buff everything else to be on same level, and this will continuously happen until they move through all the powersets starting with Celestial.

Probably the only viable short term solution is to just double our toughness or something ridiculous and call it a day.

IF...only IF....powers and overall dmg can be reigned in, Immunity may no longer be necessary for Arenas
Both camps have already agreed they'd be willing to replace the immunity reward with a different kind of reward. That's a good place to start the discussion.

Certain Legends benefit from immunity. That may not be thought of as a thing by Devs (much like midrange was not a thing for a long time) but that capability is present, regardless of the name we give it.
Unless the same dmg/health realignment could be aplied to Legends, recommend we leave immunity alone in Legends
We need a topic thread to focus on legends. I'll note for future.
The argument that certain Legends benefit more from immunity is almost solely rooted in the fact that a minority of Legends have tray abilities that are vulnerable to interrupt and 5 Legends have Stealth.

Does Stealth and the fact that Robin's #2 is vulnerable to interrupt mean we have to hold on to immunity as is? No, I don't think so. There are any number of solutions to deal with those underperforming powers. I mean does Robin's #2 even need to be vulnerable to interrupt in the first place?

I think we can safely discuss alternative rewards for immunity without forcing another split between game modes.

Also, as to the current strategy of fitting as much damage into a knockdown as possible ("counter punishment") I'll point to this again:

As you said, Legends are already unbalanced. People are always asking for needed adjustments to them; not just me.

Maybe the new pvp set will have more toughness to make up for weapon and power damage.

I dont get why people are so keen on removing immunities... Will they be removed in pve too? Dumb down yet another aspect of DCUO? In legends and arenas they help to overcome the individualities and respective differences between different powers and legends. Balancing without immunities will be (imo) even harder bc of legends and powers uniqueness. Or will we have every legend and power doing the exact same thing? ByeBye uniqueness or have fun balancing around executability of different legends and powers.
Welcome to spamming and HackandSlash-style PvP...

First of all, it isn't a minority of legends. At least half of the roster have abilities that are comparatively useless or gimmicky beyond their utilisation to improve counter punishment.

This means without immunity, half of the legends roster loses effectiveness and 1+ abilities for each of those legends need to be changed in order for them to be effective or at least usable again.

You have combo abilities, abilities which can be jump canceled (Robin's 2, bullet storm, various shout abilities and more), stealth, spin attacks such as harley/sinestro's/Donna's/Wonder Girl's which all primarily get the most use for improving counter punishment.

You can make an argument without using hyperbole and without stating things that are outright not true. That will lead to even more problems in the future and confusion amongst some people who read your posts and don't play legends.

And before you repeat yourself again and state they can be changed to not need immunity, of course they can. But that just means the devs need to then focus on the abilities of half of the roster and come up with a way of changing them to make them effective. It's simply creating a lot of work when immunity does not cause any issues within legends & actually helps to balance out or improve multiple current legends.

I commend anyone for continuing the fight for pvp but there hasn't been any activity on the devs end in our pvp section in god knows how long I for one am done fighting for it they obviously don't give a damn enough to even tell us stop asking it ain't happening. Good luck chill

Watched a few Death and Glory PvP videos today, noted a few things...

Variety! In powers and weapons used. At a guess I'd say because people weren't afraid to use a slower weapon (for example), as being blocked didn't mean a long period of helplessness.

Block wasn't all-powerful, at all!

Pace... Fights flowed at a fast but steady pace.

It was fun to watch, let alone play!

Ah, okay I see where you're coming from. There are certainly a lot of Legends with at least 1 power vulnerable to counter.

But I just don't see how a shout makes Bane weak as a character in any way. I don't even see how Robin's #2 makes him more useless as a character. And stuff like Sinestro's Claw and Kyle's pencil I see as just a straight-up advantage.

The only Legend I see as being too burdened with vulnerable powers is Felix. I would have said Two-Face when I was a noob, but I've seen some really amazing Two-Faces over the years.

Frankly, I think stuff like Shouts and Freeze Breath are just useless and would need adjusting even with immunity, but it's a pretty low priority.

You know you just reminded me of something. When immunity first dropped (and for a long time afterwards) I remember the #1 PvP complaint was how slow the game felt.

Before immunity, having 1-ish second hardstuns and blockstuns you could break out of meant the combat felt really fast and fluid. By the time you got 1 counter you were already thinking about how to land/avoid the next counter. It was a constant back and forth and you were always on your toes.

After immunity, there would always be a stop in the action every time a counter happened. The guy who landed would just go on autopilot with their guaranteed followup while the guy on the ground would just wait it out or go on the defensive. It felt more "stop-and-go" and less fluid.

I just kind of shake my head whenever I see people call pre-immunity PvP a turtlefest. It was waaaay faster in my opinion.

It isn't simply being vulnerable to counter like I said, it's also that those abilities can be used in a way to increase DPS within that small window when longer weapon attacks aren't able to fit within it (so they still have their uses even with the current state of weapons).

Obviously shout being nerfed doesn't make Bane a weak character (I never said this), but that's only because he also possesses other strong abilities like venom clap and venom up. It still helps his counter punishment though and the shout becomes useless otherwise because you are better off using 1/4 for safe power damage. This same shout also belongs to other characters which rely more on that slightly higher counter punishment to even attempt to keep up (arkillo/kilowog for example).

With robin, it shifts him to being on the lower end of mid-tier or even on the high end of low. Why? His number 2 can be jump canceled to allow you to fit another tap -> hold in that otherwise wouldn't be possible (which added together with the single tick of 2s damage adds up to around 700~ damage). Staff is one of the easier weapons to block in the game (the only single target option has a decently sized window which can be blocked on raction and the only hard hitting weapon attack is full AoE) and due to their only being two real options for attacks means it's very predictible. You can't even really use this to your advantage to block break as the attacks are so easy to block to anyone who is used to playing against them, either on reaction/delayed block or via screen blocking for the 3xtap hold as previously mentioned (plus the single target options is pretty low on damage anyway).

Robin tends to fall behind in damage in most 1v1s and he can't really utilise his double flips in the same way characters like harley and NW can (his backflip has a 1 second longer cooldown and also throws him way back without cc resistance), the way he offsets this is through having higher than average counter punishment which allows him to make up the damage he usually loses out on against most other legends. His 2 is the only ability which grants him this advantage. His damage in 2v2s is even worse as he no longer has a viable AoE spell after the stealth nerf, the only saving grace is the AoE damage from staff which is good (and this also disappears without immunity).

And two-face certainly doesn't need the counter punishment, he's still a top tier legend but that's solely because of how broken his blue SC is even after all of the complaints and constructive criticism thrown at the devs. It's simply that bullet storm in his base form becomes gimmicky without i, plus the fact bullet storm is no longer used for counter punishment when you hit the blue SC (TF's punishment is actually lower due to the number 2 not having the helpless PI, but doesn't need it because of the press-1-and-win mechanic).

I also completely forgot might finishers in my previous listing. Cheetah's only aspect that makes her playable is the fact that her berserker gives her great weapon damage, counters hit harder and that her finisher is also used for counter punishment. The finisher also plays into this by healing her so she can continue the risky play style she utilises to stay below 30% life. Saint loses what little help he gets from it and faust also becomes unable to use his, same with arkillo. Immunity was the sole thing that made those abilities viable in legends, and they need all the help they can get to compete with combo finishers.

How are Sin's claw and the bat abilities a straight up advantage? The claw is easily blockable and any power that clips it also becomes blockable, same as the bats. The damage is far too risky considering you can just queue up a spinning punch or smokebomb for the same amount of risk without the power cost. The bats have dodge true, but it's only 1 second which isn't even enough to be viable especially considering the power cost of the abilities in comparison to flips. Maybe before weapon damage was further increased they provided a DPS increase over standard weapon attacks, but I'm not sure they'd even provide that anymore and even if they did it is still at the expense of power and increasing the risk of being countered (which certainly isn't a straight up advantage).

Immunity most definitely slowed the meta down, infact I don't think that is what most people blame for the "turtling". I think that's more due to how overpowered block used to be with no delay, window and no way to reset blocked taps.

GU47 Made defense and toughness almost meaningless. Even Ice Tanks and Earth Brick Tanks feel it.
Health reigns supreme.

Robin's #2 only has like a 0.5s vulnerability when jump cancelled, which is kind of OP when you think about it.

Might finishers have been in the game long before immunity, and got a lot more use when they actually could kill someone at 35% health. You trade the ability to finish a fight for only a 1.5s vulnerability to interrupt. Celestial's might finisher just got buffed by like 300% on test according to Remander so that's a good sign that other finishers will get some love soon.

Yes, Sinestro's claw and Kyle's pencil are blockable.. just like every other hold attack in the game.

Honestly, these are starting to sound like quibbles. Do you really need something to be absolutely free from risk AND give you semi-god mode before you're willing to use it?

Not to mention all these arguments are still based on how much damage you can fit in a knockdown ("counter punishement") when Shazam and Black Adam make it rather pointless. If you want "counter punishment" to be a thing we need to get the devs on board with it. Otherwise it's better to scrap the concept because it goes against the current direction of the game.

Btw if anyone has any other ideas on alternative rewards for counters I'd like to see it. Apologies if Legends talk has dominated the last few pages.

Donna Troy
Reprimand: Vulnerable to Interrupt
Persuasive Lasso: Vulnerable to Dodge
combo: Vulnerable to block
Lasso Maelstrom: Vulnerable to Interrupt

Cheetah
Rake: Vulnerable to Block
Tendon Cut: Vulnerable to lunge
Blood Curse: Vulnerable to Interrupt
Feral Lunge: Vulnerable to Block

I could go on but I think my point has been made. The list can go on

Anyway, if they could reduce all the vulnerability on characters that have a lot of situational use, Im willing to try no immunity.
Always was open to it, just not right now due to the ridiculous damage potential.

Yes thats what i mean by turtle fest,block after block and u cannot do anything about it becouse the block was so short u couldnt block brake on reaction,only by randoming/predicting.
Now if a player is verry careful, he is able to counter every block,block brake,roll, u name it,all this by reaction.
There is a verry big difference in gameplay from those times and these,in fact i remember a veteran pvper took a big brake,and came back to the new changes and randomed like no tommorow,becouse he was use to getting away with alot of senseless blocks,
and was relying more on prediction then on reaction.
And thats why the pvp scene dropped really fast,becouse the accent on the mechanics.
And who teaches players mechanics?Only other players becouse the game(PVE) does not teach them anything else then ranged atacks and 1234.
I should make a small documentary on what i see q-ing in pvp,
comes right in ur face and starts ranged atacks 1234,and has no idea what hes doing wrong.
This is the reason why our pvp community has a number of ,,6`` players XD

If immunity were to be removed, you should not be countered for the countered you performed. So essentially as soon as you perform a counter the window of your counter is immediately closed.

As for the actual reward I am stumped. I am considering one the following.

• Increasing Toughess/Defense of the user.
• The user is either healed or a certain amount of power is restored to them. I am sort of eh on this as I can foresee some terriblylong fights.
• The enemy is debuffed depending on the user's role. Similar to RPS. If a Tank counters a person if they had PoT it would be stripped and they basically cannot gain power for 2.5 seconds from a troller. If a Healer counters any shield the user has will be stripped and they have a defense debuff on them. If a Troller counters someone any HoTs that were active will be stripped and a healing debuff is applied on them. If a DPS counters it randomly strips them of one buff. This encourages team play allowing players to focus on certain players and being weary of the effects on the enemies. This also allows coordination of teammates and forces team members to be aware of the buffs and debuffs on their allies. [They should really add a way for us to see buffs and debuffs on allies but that's another issue].

Donna's Reprimand is NOT vulnerable to interrupt. Yes, her whipthrash is blockable just like everyone else's and just like it should be. Her lasso is NOT vulnerable to dodge.. it's just dodgeable like every other ranged ability in the game. Her lasso kick should be blockable because it was completely overpowered when her, Wonder Woman, and Wonder Girl had an unblockable, perfectly safe lasso kick.

Cheetah's Tendon Cut is NOT vulnerable. Feral Lunge is NOT vulnerable. Only her #1 is blockable and her finisher is obviously lungeable.

Come on man. We can't make everything safe, it'd just be overpowered.

Try again. It definitely is vulnerable for Donna according to the tooltip
Lighten up Karasawa.

Who said I wanted everything safe?
I just want it fairly justified to be used.
To be Honest, Cheetah without Immunity would make her even more difficult to use. And no one wants that.

....you can't be serious right? 200 damage with a 0.5s vulnerability?

Seriously?

I can't believe I'm actually reading some of the things you're saying, they make absolutely no sense.