#UniteThePVPPlayers: Movement - Immunity and Farming

Those were parts of gameplay that were intended, the double enter/insta cancel is a bug (from devdirt anyway). I wasn't listing anything bug related

Oh man.. the cr changes and the defense/toughness changes affected both sides.
Health would be the better bet.

I'm equally amused and horrified by the turn of this thread. I'll once again re-state the findings as I've heard them. Please only reply on topic to the findings below. I know, I know...some of you are feeling that inner voice screaming to say "MUST..PROVE..MY..POINT!!". Well, this is where we have to overcome and unite as players. As long as we bicker like this, Devs will continue to (rightfully) put off pvp because players don't know what they want. Things have been stated, rebuttals made, contradictions exist. Please put it aside and let's move on.

1. Power balance and weapon damage balance FIRST
2. IF dmg balance us achieved, test immunity thoroughly to determine if it's still needed. If not, remove it.
3. Legends in part relies on immunity. For the sake of time and efficiency, recommend we leave immunity in Legends even if removed from Arenas
4. Need a future forum topic focused on balancing Legends

Thoughts?

Sounds good to me.

I do think counters need some adjustments/buffs though when immunity is removed which has been touched on already in the thread.

If the goal is PvP without immunity, anything less than is a failure.

Instead of a total removal, perhaps a solid 10 seconds of CC immunity and a slight damage increase to counters would be considered a just reward. I'd rather counters deal a flat number of damage than be based on precision.

1. Yes plz!
2./3. If the conclusion should really be to remove it then I see major issues in having a different set of "rules" throughout different aspects of the game. We remove CI in arenas but it stays in legends and PVE? What about OW? We are talking about a core-mechanic here relevant in every aspect of the game. How long will it take to implement those changes? Can it be done without breaking the game (for too long)? Therefore I would rather like to see a change to CI (if needed) throughout every aspect of the game or none at all. Why shouldnt I be "punished" for effing up (giving immunity) in Arenas but at the same time giving the boss immunity in Pve as a tank might cause a wipe?
4. Yes plz!

I agree I don't want to see a split. Immunity in PvE already behaves completely differently than PvP. It doesn't give damage immunity to NPCs, CC resistance prevents counters, and there are instant breakouts from counters.

I'd love it if PvP immunity didn't protect from damage.. though I don't care for the other differences. More importantly I hate that there's even a split to begin with.. it's like an acknowledgement that immunity isn't working out the way they wanted. I mean, does anyone even like immunity on bosses and NPCs? It's just an annoyance most of the time because you can't interrupt obviously interruptable skills that one-shot people.

Oh great a post that starts with a gif. It must totally be level-headed post full of unbiased feedback. *sarcasm*

Ok, well you go into a claim, so you better have some proof to back that up.

Let's see, so Supergirl and Sinestro aren't legends, and Stealth isn't a power? Those are just a few examples of powers and legends balanced with counter immunity in mind. Also, frankly Clutch has actually talked to the devs about legends and has even written a theorem afor them at their request. If he says they know about how counter immunity works, I'm taking his word over yours.

The last line of this quote section is a little strange. So, if powers are less useful without immunity, they are unprioritized. Basically screw it if powers become useless, they just become useless. You seem to acknowledge the nerf this would be to so many powers that legends are designed around, and yet still berate those stating the same thing.

This particular line I find very insightful into your level of expertise on legends. Anyone who's been around knows how useless Heat Vision is currently. It was made to no longer be vulnerable to interrupt, had it's damage reduced, and grants 25% damage mitigation, but is still incredibly useless even on legends as bad as Superman, Power Girl, Zod, and Ursa. Heat Vision is a great example of how bad and useless powers become if you try to design them not to work with immunity.

If they already have a lot of work, why would they create even more? Also, where are getting this magical knowledge that it would only take a days worth of work. Redesigning powers on most of the legends roster doesn't sound like a days worth of work, and even the DoT nerf didn't happen in a day. They would want a return on their investment sooner rather than later.

Ending your post with an accusation, an insult, and then going back to the accusation does speak well to the quality of the post. Whether you mean to or not, your post has a hostile, rude, and condescending tone to it that is startlingly lacking in the level-headedness considered ideal in feedback.

Just for clarification, we're not going this route with the target of removing immunity. The point of #2 is to say "if we balance powers, let's re-evaluate the need for immunity". We may find that immunity still serves a valid purpose (again, only focusing on Arenas; not Legends), and we need to adjust accordingly.

#2 = re-evaluate the purpose of immunity AFTER balancing

The shielding aspect can be gone imo especially once weapons/powers are balanced/dmg-effective health is back in line. The CI feature I rly like to stay (maybe reduced) is the uninteruptibility-also in pve. Noone likes immunity on a boss ofc but countering a boss in the T7 duo for example enables me to use my channeling arctic gust without getting knocked down. _Thats also why I like it (that aspect) to stay in pvp bc powers and legends all behave differently and therefore rely on different "windows" of uninteruptibility which I guess would be very hard to balance around without removing their uniqueness. In case of Pve one could argue whether or not the removal of bosses counter-immunity would yet again kind of dumb down another aspect of the game in favor of being able to more or less "spam" without fear of "consequences".

Thats what the "If"- part was for. Other than that I also wholeheartedly agree to #2 too, ofc.

Pve is allready dumbed down as much as it can get becouse npcs give tells to what theyr about to do anyway so they could jsut remove any kind of combos from bosses just give them abilities to stun and 1 shot .
Then again they could focus on the actual mechanic and remove all tells,and make pve players actually play the freaking mechanic instead of ranged atack and 1234 or like u sayd push 1 button win (arctic gust),and be top dps while ur at it just by pushing one button

Actually, all you need is CC resistance and you won't be countered in PvE. You don't need immunity.

And TBH, adding counter mechanics to PvE dumbed it down way more than removing them would. For example, Nexus of Reality got waaay easier after they added NPC counter mechanics.. all the NPCs got reduced health and did way less damage just to account for the fact they could randomly counter.

NPCs only give tells when they're about to "bait" you. It's when they glow orange. Otherwise they attack, block, and blockbreak without any tells whatsoever. It's annoying because they don't fight like a person at all; they're just completely random with their counters.

It is surprisingly easy to get emotional about this game, especially with friends wanting to defend friends and whatnot. Ultimately, I do respect everyone's feelings on this matter. Yes, everyone.

I will try to cut through the BS on this. Despite the technicalities, we all know that Arenas are not balanced. Legends are not balanced. Change needs to happen and will happen. I don't want to hear about how hard or how time-consuming it will be for this change to occur because right now this is just talk.

I've gotten a few things out of this discussion. People like being able to 2v1 because it makes them feel like a boss.. but they could give it up if RPS came back. People like having a "bonus" reward in addition to their counter for sure. And people definitely like uninterruptability.

There are indeed many interruptable, impractical powers in this game. Immunity at least makes them usable in some situations even if they will never be usable in the majority of the game. These abilities are impractical because the damage they do rarely justifies the length of their animations and the length of their interruptability. In essence, if something makes you vulnerable to a counter it should at least be doing the damage of a counter. It is a risk/reward issue.

Honestly, I'm fine with all these things. The major problem I have with immunity is that it discourages you from playing with one another. Yes, no one ever wants to play with noobs, but the fact that a noob getting farmed for immunity actively prevents you from doing damage is a huge incentive to be picky about who you play with.

Bottom line: I just want a system that does not punish you for playing with others, and does not punish you individually for the mistakes of others. I don't care how this is accomplished, I just want it.

Someone asked me what the big deal was about pre-immunity PvP through PM the other day. He had heard things like it was faster, more strategic, etc. blah blah. I will re-post my response so hopefully people may understand where I'm coming from better:

Nah we arent at the bottom yet... Also leave Ice alone plz- after 5xAG I usually have to renew 123 and ocassionally I even use my sc

Resistance to a boss/mob/(players) lunge, block or whatever is what I want from CI (can be CCresistance in Pve) but my tank is Ice atm and if I were fire I would probably feel different and love the shiny blue even more(tank side). Removing Boss/mob CI without adjustments would ofc "dumb down" the gameplay further. Even if Nexus became easier it wasnt nescessarly bc of CIs but bad adjustments to dmg/health as you pointed out. There are definetely some bosses which are easier to handle if noone mindlessly gives them random CI again and again or if CI is removed alltogether.
Imo removing CI from whatever aspect of the game just wont magically bring back the old days "quality" of gameplay lots of people (rightfully) seem to miss but instead leave us with lots of new issues and an even more broken game for an indefinite amount of time.

Clutch, I got extremely tired of going in circles with you (That last post was identical to the first, and still haven't answered our questions), So i'll tend to your sidekick for now, if you don't mind.

Yeah, you're right.. because calling out a person much more knowledgeable then you in both researched and first hand experience, that is the way feedback should be.

Suggesting Kara doesn't know legends? really? if you cant handle this conversation go watch more batman animated.

When you're made fun of - there's a reason for it.

You did not understand a word I just said didn't you?

Unprioritized by the player, meaning even after the change, just like what im about to bash you for in a second - remains less useful after Immunity.

Oh boy this is the stuff I feed off

So you're saying the Devs designed these Legends and powers with Immunity in mind?
Please say Yes, Pretty please:

----

You are so oblivious aren't you?

You need to point out when you're writing in sarcasm yet you cant pick up on it when it hits you in the face, Haha.

Read again, and.. Idk, Good luck?

Unlike you I don't assume to know how much time any of the fixing will take, And when I say: "It would be like days in the mix of things" - It means that since there is so much work, this amount pales in comparison.

But I guess I have to feed you with a spoon..

Clutch couldn't even get that the accusation was his, and I was calling him out on saying everything everyone says is irrelevant instead of facing it - Something you do aswell.
(Yet again proof that if anyone's not reading posts, its him)

The rest of this really isn't worth touching.. if you really don't see how you're the source of most of this rudeness and hostility, I think its a lost case.

Your previous version of these two was shifted a bit too pro-immunity. This one has compromised and slimmed so much I think you lost some of the useful points you had before though. Let me roll back to the old one and play editor with merging the two from there:

1. Balance powers and damage to NOT do crazy amounts of damage. PVP <> PVB (Player vs Boss)
2. If overall damage can be reigned in, testing might show immunity isn't important to Arenas anymore.
3. Counter Punishment windows--bursts of damage protected by immunity--may not be thought of as a thing by Devs, much like midrange was not a thing for a long time. But that capability is present regardless of the name we give it.
4. Many Legends characters are interesting and balanced by their immunity counter punishment. Even if immunity is removed from Arenas it might be easier to leave it in Legends for them.

There have been so many of these threads already. The last time I popped into one of them I extracted a "Top Ten" list of relatively simple things that might balance Legends better out of a much longer list that I really liked.

The problem is that before I could even get that into a better polished form to share more visibly, the weapon changes that buffed Smoke Bomb etc. aimed at PvE balance rolled out. I just tossed the whole thing. Not even the first time that happened. So many things that people used to talk about went poof when the CR scaling approach went into the game and rippled out to Legends too.

As long as this high damage issue is floating around without a clear lead, I think making good progress on the lower level Legends specific balance stuff is going to be stuck behind that. I'd expect yet another balancing Legends characters thread to give people lots to argue about, but ultimately it will either be unused and/or made obsolete shortly by the more popular end of the game. Any number of people here could whip out an individual Legends character balance list suggestion based on the current state of the game at any time. That current state part is the fuzzy and hard end of the problem.

You are right about that, It's a fact at this point..

If that kind of change is not accompanied with many others, It means what we saw on test - but for every aspect of the game.

This gives a very strong indication close-mindedness, instead of treating other posters as people there is one person and the sidekicks. You appear to be showing an degenerating ability to have any level-headed discussion or feedback.

Whether Kara is more knowledgeable than me or not has never been determined. You may feel that way, but that is frankly one biased person's opinion. As a PS player I know very little about him other than he has supposedly played competitively at some point. I was honestly curious how much he knew since I never saw him post regularly in the PvP section since I started posting regularly, and he appeared to miss some facts about a basic well known legends character. I even prefaced with that not everyone is expected to know everything about every legends, but sure you would read more into that then was there. You apparently think of me as some evil "sidekick".

Also, when people are making fun of others they are likely not approaching the discussion in a level-headed manner.

I'm wondering if you know how to properly use the word unprioritized, because jumped into a conversation talking about how powers useful with immunity would be useless with immunity. The way you are using the word doesn't fit at all.

Oh and more if I say it, it must be so claims. There is evidence the devs know about how counter immunity is utilized for counter punishment in legends. There is no evidence against that claim. No matter what you may choose to ignore it is there.

What, you try to take a shot at those opposed to you, and get caught having a lack of knowledge on the subject. That is what you set yourself up for. Also, again filling your post with such deconstructive, aggressive language only serves to indicate that you are not fit to provide feedback on the matter.

Oh you don't assume to know how much time any fixing will take? This seems to indicate differently.

You would bring no reasoning or support to this claim, yet when others actually bring those to their claims on these matters when they aren't are on your side you behave as if they must be meaningless because you say so. You have a particular fallacy in your logic on this subject that you appear top stubbornly resistant to acknowledge.

And yet again,. you close your post with nothing but hostile language devoid of the claims, logic, reasoning and support the build constructive discussions. You are currently taking away from the ability of posters to cooperate and discuss on this forum, as well as interfere with any real possibilty that PvP has of getting changes to progress in a meaningful and positive manner.

You seem to be more focused on a word than its meaning - I give feedback, But I don't lack emotion.

You repeatedly show you are incapable of handling a heated debate, solely for the reason people around you actually feel passionate about what they're saying.

I'm sorry, reality is - people who care show emotion, and it doesn't take an ounce of truth from their words.

Unless you played this game for as long as he has, It would be a fact that he has more first hand experience in the game and subject in question - mostly because you'd never get to experience the game on all of its past aspects.

So I don't even know why you'd try to deny that? eh.

This is the posh way of avoiding arguments when you're faced with them.

I'm sorry you're so sensitive to the way I bring things to the table, but avoiding the table all together does not make you right, It just shows you're scared by what you may see.

I wonder if you're capable of understanding what you read..

The word unprioritized was meant for any power that stayed as such after Immunity was introduced, I know this is hard to follow.. but take it slowly and I'm sure.. eventually, you'll understand.

Every single thread you use absolutes to the point no one can take you seriously.

I'm sorry once again to break this to you - There is no official recognition of any legend or ability that was designed to rely on immunity.
Further than that - there is infact more evidence to support they never thought about it for a minute, with legends who defy that logic being released.
And abilities recycled since before Immunity even existed (Your oh so loved Stealth, for example).

Those aren't "Maybes", these are facts.

*cough*
^
"This is the posh way of avoiding arguments when you're faced with them.

I'm sorry you're so sensitive to the way I bring things to the table, but avoiding the table all together does not make you right, It just shows you're scared by what you may see."

I'm astounded by how desperate you always become when you realize you argue for nothing, every post no matter by who becomes un-constructive, close minded or lacking.

Look at your past posts, you're incapable of handling the debate or its content so you call everything irrelevant or nonconstructive.

Get that broomstick out of your behind and face the content.

Yeah you know.. Unlike you I don't presume to be in the development team.. I guess that's where your posts become so constructive, on point, open minded and all that.. pretending to know things you dont - Debating 101.

I'de take that highlight 3 words to the left, then read what I wrote above.

I don't need a support for an arbitrary assumption, and I don't try to make some up like you do.

It could take *insert unit of time here*, but in comparison to all the work needed done - I believe it would hardly be felt.

But I guess that's what you really need to pick at, the unit of time I chose.. Sheesh we don't want that to be the issue after we already established the actual matter in hand - Immunity being unnecessary.
(Another example of how you're incapable of following the matter)

Listen Princess, just because you don't appreciate the way things will be presented to you in life does not take away from their meaning.

My claim was already proven 4 pages ago, and past that it was nothing but semantics, everyone here, including Clutch - already admitted the changes can be made, and now are just debating what's the best course of action and for which type of PvP.

So stop trying to hide behind an accusation like "nothing you said had reasoning or support", this entire thread shows otherwise.

Please just take it to PMs. And yeah, I've been a regular poster here before any of you thank you very much.