#UniteThePVPPlayers: Movement - Immunity and Farming

Discussion in 'Battle of the Legends (PvP)' started by ChillCat, Sep 29, 2015.

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  1. Karasawa Loyal Player


    You just gave me an essay on why Robin's #2 is good for "counter punishment" and why it would be useless because it has a.. a 0.5s vulnerability. Sorry for actually believing you and thinking it might be good.
    • Like x 1
  2. Clutchmeister Loyal Player




    No, I didn't.




    Read again. I stated that its ability to increase the DPS in that short window is its only saving grace. The vulnerability window on it is just a further downside to the ability in comparison to using a normal power for safe damage, especially considering its low damage.
  3. Karasawa Loyal Player

    Sigh. I must admit, these snarky replies are starting to get to me.

    Maybe we can just remove that vulnerability from Robin's #2 like I suggested in the first place. I don't think anyone would be against that.
    • Like x 1
  4. Absolix Loyal Player

    I thought you were just against adding safe damage, at least in your last post you were, and Robin's Staff flurry does an average of 1296 damage.
  5. Karasawa Loyal Player


    Seemed to me that it was always a good candidate for a 75% damage mitigation move like John Stewart's #5 or Bizarro's #2-3. Would just have to reduce the damage from 960 to 390-480.
    • Like x 1
  6. Absolix Loyal Player

    It also provides mitigation against the first 1500 damage taken, keeping any sort of mitigation without any vulnerability would be a huge buff to Robin, and taking mitigation and vulnerabilities out while decreasing damage would be nerfing the power to uselessness. One way you buff Robin, the other you nerf him, and that is just one character.

    How much do really know about legends? I know not everyone knows everything about every legend, but Robin is the hero side starting legend.
  7. Clutchmeister Loyal Player


    I apologise, being snarky was not my intention. It's just frustrating that you genuinely don't seem to understand how important counter punishment is to legends even after all of the information I have provided. On top of that making a change which requires so many abilities to be rebalanced just seems un-necessary when - as I stated - immunities don't cause many if any issues within legends & actually helps alleviate some.
    • Like x 1
  8. Soul Dedicated Player


    [IMG]

    I've been sitting here quietly reading that weak cover-up you guys have been giving the facts that have already been laid out..

    No one disagrees certain Legends benefit more from Immunity, and can potentially squeeze in more DMG after a counter, but none of them require it - and even if they were to, they weren't designed with that thought in mind.

    Not to mention that most powers that are less useful without Immunity, remain unprioritized after.

    But I guess basing your whole argument on "What about heat vision?! I want to fire mah lasers!", is somehow making Immunity a requirement.

    At this point you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, and saying something like "This will be a lot more work", well, DUH!
    PvP needs work, lots of it, whether Immunity stays or not, in the mix of things balancing out powers wouldn't even be a days worth of work.

    Stop attacking the person when you lost grip on your argument, It's pathetic to look at, and you do it repeatedly.
    • Like x 3
  9. Karasawa Loyal Player


    Yes, I did know that. I just looked at shiny's guide same as you. Absorbing 1500 damage while being vulnerable to interrupt is supremely useless however.
    • Like x 1
  10. Karasawa Loyal Player

    I understand. Do you understand that it's not me whom you have to convince? If you want "counter punishment" to be embraced we need to get on the same page as the devs.
  11. Clutchmeister Loyal Player


    The devs are well aware of counter punishment, i think it's more of a case of the person behind designing the legends actually doesn't fully understand (which is drenz? I know he's responsible for creating them but unaware about design).


    The amount of irony in this post is beautiful.

    1. There is no weak cover up, it is a fact that multiple legends in the game are balanced due to their counter punishment. You're the one who hasn't provided any evidence or "facts" to prove otherwise, I have. Edit: Don't bother saying "but the devs didn't plan that!!!1" because it doesn't disprove ANYTHING I've said, it's still a fact. If anything, that is the weakest coverup I've ever seen and THAT'S arguing for the sake of arguing.


    2. Your entire post had little to nothing constructive in it, so technically by posting that you are the one arguing for the sake of arguing (so does this point, but it's worth pointing out :p).

    3. Yes, PvP needs work. Legends needs far less work than arenas, and removing immunity creates far more work and it fixes nothing. The work needed in legends is solely from a weapon/power balance perspective, immunity synergises far more with legends than it does with arena. It seems like you don't understand this, so the "duh" adds even more irony to your post.

    And the final line of your post...I don't think I've ever seen a pot call a kettle black as blatantly as that.
    • Like x 2
  12. Soul Dedicated Player

    Your entire post is one big assumption the Devs are aware of the points you're making, yet they keep releasing content that defies everything you said.

    They don't acknowledge anything of what you've just said, you both coined the terminology and defined it right here, unless you get them to publicly announce it, and have it be reflected in their design choices, the simple truth is - You are arguing for no reason.

    You've continuously tried to diminish our understanding of the matter (Or any point we've made), and have yet to confront that truth directly, I think both me and Kara grow tired of you circling around this fact.

    You can be snarky or poke us with sticks as much as you want, anyone who reads these arguments sees a simple truth:
    PvP requires work - Both Arenas and Legends can be balanced out without Immunity.
    Legends were never created with the assumption they will need Immunity to be balanced.

    Now if you don't mind, all this talk about pots and kettles.. I'm going to make some Tea.
    • Like x 4
  13. Clutchmeister Loyal Player


    They keep releasing content...so 3 legends out of 30+? less than 10% of the roster? And flash has no breakout mechanic...

    Seems like the numbers are against you on that one.

    And the devs are aware of counter punishment, I should know considering I've actually spoken to them in person about it, twice.

    Have you?

    I think this is more of a case of them not understanding how powerful removing this aspect is than a case of them being completely unaware.


    You did exactly what I said you'd do....

    1. Is counter punishment real, regardless of the term that I coined to describe it?

    yes

    2. Are there some legends that have higher counter punishment based on their loadout than others?

    yes

    3. Is this due in part to abilities that would otherwise lose some/most/all of their usability without immunity?

    yes

    3. Are there some mid tier characters that are solely mid tier due to them having higher counter punishment than other, more overly powerful legends?

    yes

    Whether the devs are aware of it is irrelevant. It exists and is the sole reason certain legends are balanced, and that is not an opinion.


    You acted as though counter punishment is a miniscule/hardly relevant part of legends and stated that there weren't really any legends that required it and even if there were, it was minor.

    That is completely wrong and isn't even an opinion, it can be proven via simple math or simply by playing legends to a decent level. The fact you repeatedly keep stating them despite being proven wrong multiple times is what makes me question your understanding, because you seem to be lacking basic comprehension of how important it is and just how many legends utilise it to keep up.

    The fact you're still trying to argue is astounding.

    What does this have to do with anything?

    It doesn't change the fact that a sizable chunk of the roster utilises it to be balanced. Stop regurgitating this statement, it is completely irrelevant.
    • Like x 3
  14. Karasawa Loyal Player

    I'm on board with the role debuff option. In general, I think immunity is defensive in nature so I'd like to see it replaced with something offensive in nature. Role debuffs are a great option. Or maybe just a straight up health and toughness debuff.
  15. Soul Dedicated Player



    I don't care what you think, I care about what happens in the game in practice, and what the Devs publicly let us know, effectively making it the third time you made the same argument with no evidence whatsoever.

    I should discuss my "Combat Kittens" Idea with Mepps, I'm sure me giving it a name and definition will guarantee its existence in their work.

    You must be a mind reader!
    Let me try - You are going to reply to this comment, without even once admitting the Devs aren't in line with your assumptions.

    Ofcourse its relevant, it shows it was never a factor to begin with, while being a happy coincidence for all of us - it just goes to show they don't really know what they're doing.

    And Kara was basically saying: "Hey, let them know.. because they have no clue what you're talking about and its evident in their work."

    How is me saying it needs to be fixed without Immunity, is the same as saying its not relevant or miniscule?

    The one throwing around accusations of Irrelevancies is you.. Sigh

    You gotta be kidding me.. What does it have to do with anything?

    It's ******* everything!

    If you set to build a house, and the only reason its standing is the ******* storage unit outside - You do want to fix that ******* house regardless of why its still standing.
    • Like x 2
  16. Karasawa Loyal Player

    Well if a Legend is only usable because of immunity, it's probably better to just fix that Legend. Especially if the devs do not factor immunity in their balancing.

    I mean, if the devs are aware that some Legends can fit more damage in a knockdown than others but do not believe it's a problem, how is that any different than them not being aware of it? There is no difference. They're just not aware of it.
    • Like x 3
  17. pitbullb3 Devoted Player

    I didn't know that was pvp too
  18. AvatarofCake New Player

    this.
    • Like x 1
  19. Clutchmeister Loyal Player


    And counter punishment happens in practice, you can see it in every single legends FNL and SOE Live tournament to date.

    They didn't publicly let us know (or not until way later than they were implemented) about:

    1. Ranged taps resetting blocked melee taps (never have)

    2. Block/rolling being an intended baiting mechanic (took over a year)

    3. Breakout trinket/any superpower that doesn't have a damaging effect instantly cancelling lunge effects so they aren't blockable (never have)

    4. Dodge making block breaks miss (never did)

    5. The nerf to dodge so that block breaks that hit the window with dodge applied gives immunity but no damage/hardstun (never have)

    And there're far, FAR more examples.

    So according to you, these things don't happen in practice and you don't care about them?

    Now you can see how that logic falls flat on its face.

    I even stated I've spoken to them about it, "counter punishment" is just a way to describe it. But they know (or at least "knew") about utilising particular combos after a counter to deal damage.


    And you're going to do the same thing and completely ignore all of the factual, objective statements made and once again make a non-constructive comment? Then claim I again made a post with no facts, when I've just posted five above?

    You "corrected" one of my earlier posts, denying that any legend is helped to be balanced due to counter punishment. You also stated that it isn't needed to win, when it is against anyone that is remotely evenly skilled with you.

    That is you denying the importance of counter punishment, it isn't "irrelevant" or an "accusation".


    Do you seriously believe that comparison to be logical?

    Immunity was an intended addition to the game. The structural "flaws" would not be built into the house on purpose.

    Infact clipping in this game fits that statement much more accurately. It was never intended and they decided to keep it, so should we remove clipping and "fix" that element of the game?

    No?

    Then what you said once again, made no sense and was illogical.

    I can provide other points if you don't believe clipping to be accurate enough, you can even refer to my street fighter point earlier. Or I can use examples from other games.




    Why fix something that isn't broken?
    • Like x 2
  20. Roguester Well-Known Player

    Lets not forget roll cancel,block-roll-double enter
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