#UniteThePVPPlayers: Movement - Immunity and Farming

So what you are saying is that you know every single weird interaction and glitch there has been in the game since the release?
Who knows, maybe there was something like that? Seen more weird stuff than that.
My personal favorites were emote macro usage for unlimited power free no delay breakouts and lunge canceling (got to love perma dodge and forward leaping while still moving with out of combat speed). Who is there to say that there wasn't a point of time a weird clip issues with brawling and certain combos was a thing.

Guess i have never been a part of a decent premade then.
Not in a single patch since this game became f2p have i seen tanks as "have to have for competitive arenas". It has always been easy to play without a tank.

To do with lots of different issues.
* Horrific UI (Not seeing buffs/debuffs of your party members)
* Long cooldowns on cleanses compared to spammable healing debuffs
* When PoT stripping was a thing, healing debuffs removed controller's PoT as well (essentially doing tanks job better with stripping PoT and applying healing debuff)
* How easy it has been to actually heal through healing debuffs. [ If healing debuffs would still working as they used too (resto cut in half + heal receive debuff), current PvP season would be the 1st one where it would not be a joke to heal with an dedicated DPS troll on my back (nerfed SC, no full SC from start, reduced healing, high power costs, no consumable PI healing, no debuff cleansing via consumables, no group sodas, no high resto PvE gear in PvP, resto cap). ]

And this was not what Absolix was pointing out. He just mentioned that

with

is not making much of a sense when a lot of games with some of the biggest player bases out there are all far more complex than DCUO.

Remove immunity and and RPS back to the game and all those casual PvE-rs you want to come over PvP would be run over even harder by veteran groups than they would right now.

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And now to the actual topic.
Main reason i have supported counter immunity since the day 1 is its ability to punish mindless focus fire in competitive arena setup. More targets you have on yourself, easier it is to gain immunity. Without immunity it would mostly be just a DPS race vs heal spam.
It has been what has made PvP in DCUO feel different compared to other MMOs and their arenas (as the usual CC coordination for cooldown forcement is not a thing in DCUO).
If focus fire was solved in another way, removing immunity would not be worst thing ever happened to the game (earth tank's mechanic was a nice start). Game is fun with the immunity and game was fun before it.

If immunity was removed though, i would love to see some other benefit from counters for support roles (there already were couple of decent ideas in the topic).

Yep, I get what you're saying. I get that this is how you categorize Legends in your mind. It's not how the devs categorize Legends though. Counter punishment is not a term they use. You insist on speaking about the game as if you made it when the only thing you made is the terminology.

Let's use your example above.

Legend A = John Stewart (7863 hp)
Legend B = Batman (10320 hp)

Batman seems like he has "high survivability" in this context because he has 30% more health. However, John has a shield, a 75% mitigation channel, and a tray ability that combos for extra damage. These 3 things are something he can do that Batman cannot, and thus the devs lower his health to "equalize" their survivability.

In the devs' mind, their survivability is (on balance) equal. Their ability to fit damage into a knockdown (what you term "counter punishment") does not factor into their end-health.

You may not agree that their survivability is equal, and you may even come up with your own way of categorizing Legends instead.. but it is not how the devs see it and that's all that matters.

Your categorization taking "counter punishment" into account would be perfectly fine if it reflected what the devs actually do. But the fact that they add characters like Shazam and Black Adam who completely disregard "counter punishment" while still having 8845 hp just completely throws your categorization out the window.

Ultimately, you can categorize things however you want but you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. The devs don't factor the amount of damage a character can do in one knockdown ("counter punishment") into their balancing.

We should either convince them to embrace it or we should convince them to reduce the length of knockdowns such that breakout powers and "counter punishment" won't be as important.. either of these routes would at least get us on the same page.

As to your other points, I think my first statement covered it already:

But fine, you insist that DC is too simple for esports. It's probably true, it will never be an esport. But I don't want DCUO to be equivalent to Street Fighter as you seem to want. I'd rather just play regular DCUO.

Of course I care. But you're trying to tell me that the only realistic solution to gimmicky, impractical abilities is to have immunity. That's just blatantly untrue.

So from me saying: "Never in the existence of this game was a Hold cancelled with Block", You got "I know everything"?

I have to admit I feel very honored.

You said it, not me.

If you were around here when the game went f2p (Which I assume is what you are saying), and played competitive PvP back then in a 5v5 setting, You'd know a tank was necessary, not recommended.

It is only later when Dps started getting out of hand, with the help of PvE and improper weapon damage tweaking, that you could just decide to go with extra DPS instead.

If you do not remember the "Dps Gear in Tank Role" designated player, then I can only assume you weren't in the best premades around at the time.

1. UI was/is annoying, Agreed, but the communication was made vocally, you know how that works.. I don't see how that helps your point.
2. The CD on cleanses should be long, or else Healers would be unstoppable, and the game would not progress. (Something that actually happened for a while when they introduced Avatar Bombardier)
3. The Tanks job was a lot more about cleansing than debuffing at the time, I agree.
4. I don't know who you used to run with and against back then, but while proportionally healing under debuffs was more effective, so were group efforts and focus (Since we did not have Immunity..), the only thing standing between a Healer and death was the cleanses and Heals, Essentially making cleanses a must.

It makes sense Because it's DCUO, if we raised the question of how many people are playing this game because they like a certain super hero, a certain story or treat it more like watching/living one of the movies/comics. (PvE in a nutshell)

What do you think the answers would look like? be honest.

Better players will forever dominate PvP, with or without Immunity/RPS.
Harder? No, Most definitely not.

I'de wager they would keep their place and be met with a lot more PvPers like Thrump and Zypher, Hatter, Chill and the like - PvPers that shine as a team.

I wish I could thumbs up that..

Edit: Heck why not.

Haha, yeah I wish I could thumbs up just that paragraph as well. Oh well, I'll just give both of you a thumbs up.

I don't want it now, take it back!

All u 3 have done here derail this thread, I don't need to mention any names, plz take it on PMS,and stop fighting here

Please Dev's dont touch legends pweeese, just balanced the weapons attacks and legends will be fine again.

Immunity stay or go? , who came up with that discussion again?. pweese dev's let imunnity stay but buff it to exstend a counter is rewarded again.
And while you at it, get rid of support roles caps in arena's ,then we support roles have a descent bandage for the stupid damage's dps deal atm.
Some times it looks people just want to discuss, i readed the whole tread with a nice cup of thea, and there was leterially nothing new to the table.


A simple GU54 Make it so !


Greetz Dibrie

Trust me, you do not want me to take any of this on - on PMS.

True balance in legends is that all have their advatages or disadvantges.

Instead of diff skin same powerset, only legends need to is balance are their weapon based damage.
And CC isues but that will never be xDD

You started bashing on the guy on how he was talking out of his *** and how he for sure has not player back then.
Only way it is plausible is if you literally know everything, or you just were a complete _ _ _ _.

Nope, it wasn't.

Only way ever to have a tank in competitive deathmatch was when he was wearing dps gear in tank role. Even then it was far from necessary.

2. Who was saying anything about removing CD on cleanses. That's not the issue here. Issue is how quickly debuff can be reapplied. If anything, cleanses should provide decent duration immunity to debuffs or healing debuffs should have a longer cooldown
4. Electric healer around it's release had enough sustainable burst healing to easily heal through a DPS with a red/purple damage buff spamming freely (healing solo).
Nature would never even have to care for a healing debuff with gorilla form being immune to restoration cut and ability to start matches with full SC.
Sorcery had watcher (not affected by owners restoration) and pre-nerf Arbitter.
With that and how PvP trinkets provided short term immunity to healing debuffs, not to even talk about consumables for PI heals and debuff cleanses what people started abusing later on, it was quite easy to live tank free.

Around lightning strikes DLC it was already quite easy to crack 700k-1mil healing with no PI/cleanse consumables, no tank and dedicated DPS troll chasing you in a 15 min 5v5 deathmatch as a solo heal (do not have any screenshots saved before lightning strikes, so can't remember exact numbers before it).

I don't know if a tank was needed, but tank immunities were alot stronger back then, and a group not using a tank would be cc to death. Usps use to have tanks in dps gear, and sometimes tanks were out dpsing the dps. You know the devs nerfed tanks because they thought groups would stack tanks (don't know how they came to that) and have tank immunities up for entire pvp matches. This was around hands of fate i believe

I bashed him for lying to try and make an argument.
You don't have to like the way I acted, but the fact remains he was indeed spitting BS.

Sigh, how do you expect me to respond to this?
8 year old: Yes, it was.
I can't find any early 2011 Competitive PvP videos, if you have any let us examine them, if you don't.. I'm just going to leave it at that.

*Calls in the 8 year old again*

That's exactly why those short breathing windows were so important, and I agree about the second part, it became more evident that the duration wasn't enough with damage scaling so rapidly.

With consumables, Yeah.
That's only later, and around the time Dps started getting hectic tho.

SCs were never a reason not to take the Tank-Dps, you could see those setups burn themselves out on the long haul, Gadgets trollers spamming finishers, our oh-so-good CC issues at the time..
I was a Sorc healer at the time, I can see your point if you'd argue Arbier and Gorilla were problematic, but even then they didnt provide consistent enough safety without the Tank.

You are talking about "Later on" tho, the debuff granades/cleanses, and Elec counting on PI.. Sigh, Yeah, I remember.. and you're jumping to a time that I feel like signaled the beginning of many issues.

The numbers by themselves don't represent much, and usually a setup with a DPS Tank meant lower numbers all across the board, again, not that it represents anything..

I don't know how to settle this without footage of Top-End Competitive PvP from early 2011, and I've already admitted I have none - If you have some, please share.

That's exactly how I remember it, dealing with Gadgets at the time meant having a Tank, and depending on SCs (While being very effective at the time) would mean a high burn for short time kind of setup, and usually would not last against a well balanced premade.

Except what you're talking about is more of a mirror image for late 2012.

I was trying to be nice to u soul even if u called me a liar
But fk it, ur garbage and everything that followed from u was really sht,unconstructive,RPS related which everyone disliked in 2v2 and 1v1,won't mention duels.
U say the game wasn't made for 1v1s but that's 80% of PvP,duels 1v1s and 2v2s,rest are 20% proper premades made by proper leagues.
Everything needs to start from 1v1 balance then go up 5v5

No consumables.

No i'm not. That's why i said "what people started abusing later on".
Part 1

Part 2

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And Soul was completely right on this.
There is a reason why almost all duelling tournaments were DPS vs DPS. How do you expect to balance stuff like 1v1 healer vs healer?
Roles are meant for group content. You do not do solo PvE content running as a healer, do you? Why should you be duelling as one then?

RPS was fine and worked like a charm. Wasn't the biggest fan of it personally, but there is no reason to bash on it. Other than support roles gaining damage bonus off DPS (for example healers still getting bonus for hitting an ice DPS), system was completely fine. Was much better than current balance is.

grabspopcorn

In early pvp a tank was highly desired in the team, with both cleanses on rotatation. Without which the opposing team's troller would be debuffing your healers to uselessness.

I remember tanking many moon matches, and if my cleanses were not on point, I'd have the healer yelling in my ear.

I think this is a good time to drop it, like I said, I don't have the footage to showcase what I meant, and I'm guessing neither do you?

We seem to agree on a lot more than we disagree, including the confidence boost issues in a Role vs Dps scenario.
I guess where we disagree is you support the Immunity as an added system to balance it out, and I believe that just created more issues, and the problem should've been fixed at its source.
(Or maybe we don't even disagree there?)


I feel like this is where we might start going in circles, so yeah, time to drop this.
Have a good weekend.

Folks, the bickerjacking is getting out of hand. Arguing points are fine but when i see name call,that's too far. Please, please, please do NOT force me to get the thread locked.

Attempting to get us back on track...

1. Balance powers and damage to NOT do crazy damages. PVP <> PVB (Player vs Boss)
2. IF...only IF....powers and overall dmg can be reigned in, Immunity may no longer be necessary for Arenas
3. Certain Legends benefit from immunity. That may not be thought of as a thing by Devs (much like midrange was not a thing for a long time) but that capability is present, regardless of the name we give it.
4. Unless the same dmg/health realignment could be aplied to Legends, recommend we leave immunity alone in Legends
5. We need a topic thread to focus on legends. I'll note for future.

Agreed?

It is much better than leaving legends more unbalanced or redesigning a large portion of the legends roster. That is just blatantly true.

2. If something, like Talve suggested, something is added to arenas after power balance, weapon balance, role balance, and everything else that really needs to be fixed first to help players mitigate focus firing, then maybe.

4. It is more about the entire design of abilities from about 18 out of the current 38 legends would have to be redesigned. In addition various defensive abilities would have to be redesigned or removed as removing immunity would greatly buff them. It would essentially need a redesign of most legends to undo the imbalances introduced from removing immunity in addition to health and damage realignment.