Trailblazing Guide to Fire

Discussion in 'Oracle’s Database (Guides)' started by Soulburn32, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. L T Devoted Player

    On test I used:
    • Immolation
    • Stoke Flames
    • Burning Determination
    • Backdraft
    • Engulf
    • Absorb Heat
    I didn't bother testing shield heavy load outs because that worked so well. For most content, you could swap Engulf for a Supercharge and go really really old school Fire Tanking if you want.

    EDIT : Quoted you guys to tag the reply
    • Like x 1
  2. Cyro Committed Player

    The biggest problem with poor mans ice shield is that when your shields break and you have none ready to go it puts a lot of stress on the healer(s) because of our health being so bouncy that is made worse but putting nothing in resto resulting in low heals. The biggest problem with this build in my opinion is that we can survive the first big hit easy enough but if we dont get heals quick enough it doesnt take much to knock us out at that point due to our lower defense, our whole mechanic is heals and high health and when you take both of those away we are barely better than a dps.

    I think for face tanking full resto spec with everyman, mystic, trans is the best way to go but for kiting full dom with shields mancles, everyman, scrap

    Our new shield is very powerful and even with a resto spec i had it last 11 out of the 12 seconds (pre nerf) with that shield its so much easier to be a true fire tank but i havent tested what it would be like as a poor mans ice tank i feel like the shield now makes it harder to achieve this.
    • Like x 1
  3. BrandonB Well-Known Player

    I've noticed that your preferred artifact in a lot of your fire load outs is the Tetra. Are you really seeing that much of a damage difference over the others? I've never had it leveled past 130, so I feel like I haven't really gotten to test it to it's full potential. I've tried the Grim a bit, but the damage ticks, while basically free damage, seem really weak. The PI is nice, but I can get that with Heat Vision. There again, though, I haven't really tested it that much. Just curious on your input.
  4. AV Loyal Player

    Top tier DPS artifacts are Tetra and Solar (not every power requires Solar for AoE but most need it for ST), followed closely by Trans (for powers that don't need Grim PI to achieve peak performance) and Grim (for powers that lose a lot of damage without PI or if they setup their own PI, and sometimes even when that's not the case) for ST. Strat is BiS for AoE (3-4+ targets) but WiS for ST. Here's an explanation to help understand why that all is:

    Superpower damage = Base Superpower Multiplier * (100% Might)
    What that means is that 10% more Might directly translates to 10% more Might based DPS.

    But it's also important to understand how stats are calculated:

    Stat Total = (Sum of Raw Stats) x (Sum of all Stat % Modifiers)
    Where:
    Raw stats are from our gear, the raw values on artifacts, origin augs, generator mods, stat buff trinket, the raw values on episode augs, food, our innate stat floor, and stats gained from bonuses granted by Tetra and Dilustel
    and
    Stat modifiers are from (using might as an example) League buffs (3%), neck mod (2%), artifacts (13-15%, potentially lower with bad arti combos), episode augs (6%), affinity mods (2%), Compound Omega (5%) and potentially Claw (7%) totaling ~31-33 or 38-40% w Claw, not including things like Bottled City Soder

    Now let's looks at what Trans offers us:

    (Trans DPS Gain) = {[(Base.DPS@Trans-Stats x 46 x 2.36) + (Base.DPS@Trans-Stats x 54)]x0.85}/100 - {[(Base.DPS@Other-Stats x 26 x 2.06) + (Base.Dps@Other-Stats x 74)]}/100

    To solve for exact stat difference (Factor to Beat) at which Trans become beneficial, set Trans DPS Gain = 0 and Base.DPS@Trans-Stats = 1

    0 = [(46x2.36) + 54]x0.85 - [(Factor.to.Beatx26x2.06)+(Factor.to.Beatx74)
    Factor.to.Beat = 138.176/127.56 = 1.083

    Therfore Factor.to.Beat = 1.083, meaning Trans becomes beneficial when, barring other damage benefits/mechanics, we lose less than ~8.3% of our in-combat Might (or other such damage) when we use it over another artifact. Important Note: Claw, Head mods, and rly any adjustment to crit rate has very little impact on this, as it benefits both sides of the equation, and the factor only increases to allow Trans to account for a ~8.5% stat difference at best). Also this doesn't include weapon taps obviously but it's a close enough approximation for our needs.

    So the question is: Does Tetra and its mechanic increase our Might by more than 8.5%? Obviously, yes... way more (~14-15% and colossally more when we consider the group DPS benefit)... and it doesn't take a lot of health to reach that 8.5% threshold... but if there's more than one person wearing Tetra, the one with the highest Health should keep it on and everyone else should switch to Trans in that slot (or Grim, if they already had Trans in or based on personal preference).

    Tetra Gain:

    I have either 145395 or 151508 Health when running content depending on whether I'm wearing Trans or Grim. This results in a raw Might buff of 5816 (w Trans) or 6080 (w Grim) per person. Once % mods are applied, this works out to ~7618.96-8086 per Might DPS (assuming good artis and more with Claw) for an >13% increase per DPS), 6281 to 6566 more might per Tank for an ~17% increase per tank, and somewhere in the middle for Controllers. While it has less of an impact on Prec DPS, they still obviously benefit as well.
    So what Tetra's mechanic really translates to is, "All of your group's yellow damage now hits >10% harder for the entire raid" or "Your group now effectively has an extra half a DPS' worth of damage." It's the single most powerful artifact in the game by a long shot and any group not running one is handicapping themselves. So to answer your original question, Tetra should be everyone's "preferred" artifact in that the highest health DPS/Troll in any group (or at least someone/anyone) should always be wearing a Tetra because if there's not one, everyone is a lot worse off.

    Grim vs Trans for ST:

    TLDR: It's mostly personal preference here but there's important stuff to consider.

    With Grim on, we'll have ~1.8% more total Might in content than with Trans on and Void Gazer adds approximately (assessed fully buffed) ~5% to our avg DPS, bringing total total net stat + bonus damage benefit to 7.8%, 0.5% shy of the threshold at which it can outright beat Trans for average DPS performance in a straight dummy comp. Supply drops and other group/self buffs also work in Trans' favour.

    Note: Also it's important to remember that Trans will give us both higher and lower parses, because of the crit factor, but the avg performance is all we really care about.

    There are other unquantifiable factors to consider:

    - Even if we can setup our own PI in our rotation, most powers that need their PI to reach peak performance lose a lot of damage if they ever hit without PI (eg. I can straight up lose ~25% of my damage on an attack if it hits something without a PI). As such, Void Gazer adds some consistency by ensuring it's basically impossible (if your rotation is setup correctly) to ever hit anything without PI no matter what (but there is like a millisecond gap between re-app sometimes).
    - Trans only helps us while we're running our rotation. Grim keeps attacking even when we're not, eg when we're Cc'd, interrupted, or dodging mechanics.
    - We have more health when using Grimorium Verum. Also, Void Gazer is invincible, meaning it's guaranteed permanent 2% dmg mitigation via Spirit Link (which, combined with the extra health makes us a fair bit tankier, especially when factoring in Empowered Channeling).
    - Stronger Tetra buff with Grim to the point that the personal + group benefit does exceed Trans' 8.3% threshold.

    With all that, it's up to the individual to decide whether they prefer the ~0.5ish% avg DPS gains and boost to supply/neo performance and, more importantly, if those gains are actually going to come into fruition in content with the PI, reliability/consistency, and survivability elements factored in. Personally, unless it's a straight up stationary tank & spank and the boss is virtually a training dummy, I prefer Grim's real-world performance but there's ultimately not a huge difference between the two in practice and it comes down to personal preference.

    Note: I also tend to prefer Grim for my own use because I pretty much always have the most health and therefore always wear Tetra. Grim makes Tetra's raw buff 4.5% stronger than Trans on me, adding an additional 2112 total raw Might to the group which actually does make Grim exceed the threshold allowing it to outshine Trans with the group benefit factored in (even more so once individuals' % mods are applied). Basically, if you're the Tetra-bearer, the group is overall stronger if you use Grim while your personal performance is pretty close; if you're not the Tetra-bearer, you should be using Trans -and- Grim.
    • Like x 2
  5. Psyfur Well-Known Player

    That’s basically my boss tank loadout, except that I use hard light shield and perfect poise instead of stoke flames and backdraft. When I’m not tanking bosses, I use backdraft instead of absorb heat, since adds love being knocked down so much.

    The one ability that I can’t embrace is stoke flames. I get plenty of PI just from taunting and pulling, so I don’t need it for that, and I can get more healing from either backdraft or absorb heat. I’m really not a fan of stoke flames. I was hoping this tank balance would’ve changed that, but it seems that Batuba likes how stoke flames is at the moment.

    EDIT: However, I do like stoke flames as a dps.
  6. L T Devoted Player

    These forums need slack's "/shrug"

    The loadout above worked for me on test to solo everything in the open world. YMMV.
    • Like x 1
  7. BrandonB Well-Known Player

    This was the kind of answer I needed. Now I have a little bit better of an idea on where to throw my Nth metal this week. Thanks.
  8. AV Loyal Player


    With Solar, Trans, Grim, Tetra you're covered for every ST application and prepared if no one else has Tetra. With Strat thrown in, you're fully BiS for AoE as well, though it's not like trash clear is going to make or break any run so Strat's more for fun than anything (also its dummy performance is slightly inflated since raid trash tends to die before it can reach full potential, though it's still an AoE BiS). Arguably the "strongest" Fire boss roto is a La-Mort roto but if the group wipes before 35% it will appear to be slightly underperforming, and we armoury back to the standard roto anyways after the proc so that's all personal choice.

    Technically the strongest artis are the once we don't actually wear and just tac swap (ie. Scrap, Scepter, Stone), but you can get by without doing that if you don't want to.
  9. BrandonB Well-Known Player


    Is 160 on the Tetra and Grim sufficient enough?
  10. AV Loyal Player



    Eh.. depends on your definition of "sufficient." Not like 200 160 or even 120 artis are needed to clear things but you're gonna really feel the difference between 160 and 200. It's night and day both mechanically and in terms of raw stat benefit. In terms of maximizing performance, 200 is critical, especially with Solar Amp due to the non-split burst AoE and, most importantly, the bonus Empowered Channeling mod. Trans and Strat are borderline not worth using at all pre-200. If something's worth using, it's worth taking to 200, realistically.
  11. DeitySupreme Loyal Player

    Here is my fire dps guide. Hope y’all like it.

    • Like x 1
  12. Dannyro19 Active Player

    I've been trying out snuff out in a test build and actually really like it, I guess except for single targets. Anyone else using this or am I way off here?
  13. BrandonB Well-Known Player


    It's really solid. I use it in my single target loadout.
  14. Dannyro19 Active Player

    Are you using the La Mort card as well?
  15. Dannyro19 Active Player


    Why are you using freezing breath in a fire build?
  16. Dannyro19 Active Player


    I have been using solar, strategist, and grim, but now im thinking about dumping strategist for la mort because of me liking snuff out....
  17. DeitySupreme Loyal Player

    Because it’s a strong move when used correctly.
  18. BrandonB Well-Known Player

    Nah, I don't have it leveled up at all. I run Transformation, Solar, and Grim. If no one in the group is running Tetra, I'll swap out the Grim for it.
  19. travelingtheory Well-Known Player

    fires theme was always the self healing tank, out of the what two tank classes the game launched with. They added two or three? Anyway the addition of more healers make a self healing tank a bit redundant. Other tanks have more shields which probably help damage mitigation Id imagine.

    They dont really need to heal themselves anymore with the content changes i dont think
  20. DeitySupreme Loyal Player

    Sorry I’m a bit lost with what exactly you are trying to say? Is it that the self heals on fire arent good? Builds? Want more shieds?

    Fire self healing is not the same as the self healing from other powers.

    Rage will self heal based on a percentage of the damage they take.
    Atomic will self heal based on a percentage of their dominance.
    Earth and ice don’t have any real self healing.

    Fire is the only tank that self heals by actively self healing. And it does a great job when done right. Absorb heat itself can self heal most damage thrown at the fire tanks.

    And what exactly do you mean by “the addition of more healers”? Yes there are more healing powers but that doesn’t exactly do anything. Only way to make self healing redundant is to have more healers in a raid. IE having 3 or 4 healers in a raid. But not sure why you’d do that. Most raids have 1-2 healers.
    • Like x 1