PvP Debuff Serums and PVP Debuff Grenades - Investigated

There has been a great deal of consternation over the PvP debuff items. Unfortunately, up to this point, the conversation revolved around conjecture and misconception rather than facts. In response to all of your feedback, we have done some data mining to shed light on the subject and bring some facts into the open.

People are under the impression that these items are making tanks useless and unbalancing the gameplay in arenas due to their overuse. The data simply does not back that up. I will detail some of the facts I have found in my investigations to show you just how non-prolific these items are in PvP.

Before I begin, I wanted to outline what I am going to expose and how it relates to the issue. I'm not going to get into specific numbers of players and matches; I will use percentages to illustrate the deltas when needed. Also, in order to illustrate my point easily I will distribute out the numbers across all the matches and players. Meaning that this analysis assumes an equal distribution. There are of course exceptions to the rule and there may be haves and have-nots which tilt these numbers from each group's point of view. Regardless, these things are simply not popping like candy in every match. Here's why:

The first thing we did was determine the rate at which these are being crafted. We then looked at how many are in the game right now. If people stopped using them altogether but kept crafting them at the current rate, the total count of those items on the server would increase by:

PvP Debuff Grenades = 0.18% per day
PvP Debuff Serums = 0.04% per day

This is an incredibly small production rate. When compared to the total number of other consumables in the game the stockpile of PvP debuff items is a miniscule number - the delta is huge!

Let's assume that players used ALL of these items on the server in a single day, thus exhausting all instances of the items on the entire server. Let's then distribute those evenly over all the matches for an entire day to do it. You would get the following results:

(**note - this is per match across all players. It is not per player per match.)
On PC = 7 used per match
On PS3 = 3 used per match

This doesn't distinguish between serum or grenade, but I can tell you there are way more grenades being produced than serums, making serums far more rare. Additionally, keep in mind that this means there are no more of these items on the entire server for the above distribution to occur. Also, the player population on the PC is lower, but the number of these items is the same as on PS3. This increases the number used per match but also indicates something interesting; there seems to be a natural equilibrium for these items across each server.

What does this tell me? Based on the rate of creation and the amount of items on each server, it does not indicate that these are being used all the time. If they were, the count would go down so quickly and the stockpiles would not be able to catch back up to replenish the supply.

So the data indicates these are not being used as often as people seem to claim. Of course there are instances where these things can be used in bursts, but the individuals that used them paid a heavy heavy price in resources to do so. And they will not be replenishing them as quickly as they consumed them - the cost to make them is very high.

I suspect that this has become the Bigfoot of DCUO pvp. If someone experienced a loss in a PvP match because someone used one of these items, the assumption becomes that they must be responsible for all the losses or set backs suffered in an arena. After doing this investigation, all I can say is: Sometimes where there is smoke there is fire. Other times where there is smoke there's just a fog machine. I think we have a case of the latter here.

That being said, we are always looking to balance features and items, and we can look into the functionality of these (i.e. cooldown timer, duration of effect, etc) but the frequency is not something that seems to be an issue at all. There simply aren't enough of them out there to make that huge of an impact on each and every match you go into.

Thats pretty sweet that you can back all this up with data.

But heres the thing. A consumable which can be spammed, along with a trinket, essentially ruin a tanks purpose in PvP. You cannot do this with other roles for sustained periods. Nothing will replace Trolls and Healers in PvP. Tanks CAN be replaced with the above items even if they're abundent or not.

A Tanks role in pvp is less useful then any other.

I imagine you've read peoples ideas for making a stronger case for having tanks. My personal favourite is debuffing Vit. I think it would be a great balance that brings a purpose on par to Healers and Trolls as both those classes can put negative status effects to the respective roles in RPS. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

Sure in most PvP cases it doesn't really get factored in, since most people don't use them... but the "elite" Premades DO use them. They use them a lot...I think what your data really showed is how people who can afford to make these constantly have a huge advantage over the rest of the population that doesn't have the means to do this.

I feel like right now I commit something to my team in PvP since I am an Earth Tank, I can absorb damage from the Healer, 25%... which isn't a ton but it's certainly helpful. The other two Tanking powers can't really say that though...Really have to ask, what does a Tank bring to the table? Not much... That's the issue.

I wonder what percentage of PvP matches contain a tank.

I am so glad you said it. It hasnt been that bad the only people that are crying about it are the ones that run 2 healers and all DPS and Troller teams.

I for one havent been concerned about these things, they been in the game for a while now and all of a sudden in the last few months have been a problem for a select few. Some people dont like using power other then using it for attacking/buffing and ccing.

But it does highlight an issue boss man - attack the healer at all cost. And that is where the problem is, a healer has to use just about everything to survive the focus fire and spamming - the cost this involves is far greater then a dps/tank/troller will ever understand so the stink a troller/dps kicks up is the fact a healer would need them more. The qq is nothing more then these player classes wanting an IWIN button against healers.

The only thing that needs to happen is a cooldown of a bit longer on them.

So, colas, supply drops, healing/powerback sidekicks, self healing/ power supers, and more are not replacing trollers and healers? LOL ok

No.. those things do some healing, but they can never do it better than a good Healer.

Serums are different because they actually can cleanse you better than a Tank can.

Spytle, thank you for taking the time to research this, but have to ask how far back you are looking? This is important because right now on USPC (and for the last 1-2 months) hardcore premades are pretty scarce. With the induction of ranked matchmaking (which I am a fan for casual playing) the oppurtunity to play/sync matches became harder and those were the situations where teams would use them the most. At this time most PVP leagues play a few matches/hours and then do raids to get ready for new MOW conversion rates so they are set on consumables and HT stuff for awhile.

I mentioned in another thread a decision regarding serums/debuff grenades shouldn't be reviewed based a review of the entire player base as: 1.) Not everyone PVPs; 2.) Not everyone who PVPs knows they are there; and 3.) Out of those who PVP hardcore they are typically just spammed against GOOD groups/players (which is even a smaller percentage.)

IMO the fact that these CAN be spammed ad nausem is the issue and as you mentioned an increase in the cool down would be sufficient to balance their use by the most competitive groups vs those that are more casual. I have played with and against people who would go through 4-6 STACKS of these during a match. These types of matches occur like a few times a month now where they use to be every other night (which also diminishes usage %'s.) The PS3 League season also just ended and I'm not sure if/how they used them but I would imagine that would adjust the numbers as well.

HT mods and trinkets diminished the necessity to run with them during casual play as there are mods that return hp, power and increase toughness--most healers can just outlast the debuffs. Consumable shields reduce the need to use them a bit as well in solo or random matches (as opposed to sync'd fights.)

I would hope that all of this is taken in consideration while viewing your data and that as many noted PVP leagues/players have stated an increase in duration would be considered just to remove the possibility of spamming them as an option. (Sorry if this is a bit scattered, just got through with a 10 hour day of data entry .)

--YZ

I forgot to mention the white mod that heals you when you activate a shield. P.S. All of those things can not crit heal well over 1k sometimes not crits past 2k

This is why I have stated repeatedly you’re development team needs to make a guide for this game. The tanks are not useless from what I have seen. It is more that the tanks do not tank when in PvP. The difference between the premades and queue is the premades work as a team which the game endgame and pvp is set. Players blame each other without even realizing they are a team. They will all be in DPS not realizing its just damage dealing and they are not helping each other. Most of the time at the end of the match they realize the role was the best choice.

So you're saying The Replacements run without a Healer or Controller?

Not even close.

Imagine how much of those items you would blow through within the first 5 minutes of a match before dropping. You ask anyone, anyone in your own league, and ask them if they would rather have a few toys they burn through within a few minutes or a real role.

Healers and Trollers will always trump any amount of trinkets or consumables you can have on you.

Spytle,

People do not run tanks in premade matches these days. Most of the premade leagues are very serum happy and now gone to run 3 trollers to one healer in some cases. Returning tanks usefulness by increasing the cooldown on serums and increasing the amount of time tank cleanses would add a better dynamic to premade matches.

Also, I would like to talk about the usefulness of actual tank PvP gear.

Ok so consider the following:

If a healer heals with DPS gear in arenas, ultimately the team is going to die from a lack of restoration.
if a troller trolls in DPS gear in arenas, a team is going to starve themselves of power.
If a tank wears DPS gear in arena, it allows a tank to DPS and really have 0 consequence with tanking in DPS gear.

Do you follow?

I propose that tank gear affect the team/tank by the following:

* Provide longer immunity by scaling with the dominance of PvP tanks
* Some sort of damage mitigation on a focus target like Earth does.


As you can see there are multiple threads the community and myself have made about the usefulness of tanks in PvP:

Please see the following:

http://forums.station.sony.com/dcuo/index.php?threads/so-still-no-fix-for-tanks-in-pvp.9939/
http://forums.station.sony.com/dcuo...dress-serums-and-make-tanks-useful-again.9786
http://forums.station.sony.com/dcuo...k-cleanses-make-tanks-viable-in-pvp-again.352



Public opinion says tanks are not so useful in PvP.

The one ability that tanks were great at performing, you basically gave to controllers.

Controllers can remove the power over time from ANYONE. Healers can rely on serums and trinket.

Point in case, the usefulness of tanks is nullified.

As I have stated above, I am sure that the distribution of the numbers is not perfectly balanced. I would concede that the reality is there are haves and have-nots, and that the haves probably stockpile a decent number of the items to go hog-wild in a match. My point with the breakdown of numbers is to illustrate the dent that behavior makes in the stockpile as a whole. Burning that many stacks over multiple matches would put a surprisingly large dent in the overall items on the server. The cost to replenish would be steep. And even if these groups manage to keep the stockpile high, I would point out that it has a benefit to everyone participating in the economy that provides the resources needed to make them.

This data isn't tracking too long term, but we will certainly keep an eye on it. But for now, it certainly led us to believe that this isn't as rampant as the comments have made it seem. Certainly this post has already gotten people to state what they think the real issue is and the more specific times when these items are used. Prior to this, it seemed to be the perception was that it was a much more pervasive issue.

On that note, this topic is about the overall use and volume of the items listed in the title. It's not really meant to be a discussion on how to address your feedback on tanking in PvP, even though this touches that tangentially. Please stay on topic.

Thanks.

My understanding is that there's only a handful of players with the resources to maintain a stockpile and word of mouth hints that they earned those resources by duplicating items in-game (recently or historically). I have heard rumors of some of these players using multiple accounts to keep their mains looking clean. But that might just be urban legend.

@ Sore

I can't comment on any individual's cash position and how it got that way. We certainly did have a bug in the game that caused a cash dupe way back when. Everyone in the game has been affected by it to some extent. While it did inflate the currency, everyone has also benefited from the money being distributed back out into the economy and right into their bank accounts due to that inflation.


Everyone has lots of money and it is not hard to acquire it on the Broker for a few crafting components - likely to make these very items if your observations on consumption are used. It's a circle and people are benefiting from the very behavior they claim is hurting them in another part of the game.

It is important to add: This isn't even an issue on all platforms/servers. This would mean the data is still useful on the servers that didn't suffer that glitch. Thanks for the observation though. In summary, I think the economy is something that factors in here, but unless there is something I can clarify about the components and gathering them, I'm not sure what more I could add to the issue you raise.

The recent dupe glitch (2 months ago?) gave them a huge amount to stock up on. Exobits, stacks, promethium colas, you name it.

None of this stuff was taken away from people.

i had heard exactly the same thing. that bird must get around pretty good

this must be why the syrums and grenades are getn used so much lately. i would rather see them become cheaper so us "have nots " can afford them or make the cooldown longer so they have less impact. it seems the majority wants this addressed

I see that.

While the overall population is quite expansive, it's kind of a small world when you look at the longstanding prominent personas that are active in the DCUO community. Much of the public opinion can be fed by the bragging of a small number of well known players.

Of course that's not exactly the crux of the consternation you're referring to. That probably takes more root in the general direction of time investments being able to boost your PvP performance contrasted by players that would like to see arenas be Legends but with their toons. In this case, the tangential topic applies of that boost stealing work from Tanks who don't have a lot of jobs in PvP to start with.

EDIT: I'm not pretending to have any answers nor expect any to be given. I'm just engaging the discussion.