PvP Debuff Serums and PVP Debuff Grenades - Investigated

The reason that people think these things are used so much is likely related to the messaging of debuffs. If you debuff a healer and they cast a heal over time move, the icons cancel each other out and it looks like the debuff is gone. What we really need is a separate row of icons for active debuffs so players can see just how often the debuff is being removed, be it from serum, pvp trinket, the rare tank in a 5 map, etc.

Can you solo it quicker?

No, and I'm not bragging about anything here, you seem to want to make this an argument. The point was, what CAN be done and what should be done is totally different.

Is it possible to use those types of heals and not run a Healer? Sure. Is it faster and easier to just pick up a Healer and Controller and run the content? Most definitely.

Same concept on Tanks in PvP except the other way around, which is what's wrong. For people who can afford stacks of serums, it's actually easier and better to just use those, then stack another DPS in group than to actually run a Tank in PvP. Since the Tank's cleanses are actually less efficient than the serums.

Not going to argue with you here, but my point wasn't solo nor duo, it was the over gearing. If someone wanted to, they could probably solo it without the HT trinkets. Do it slowly, but it could be done. That is what the walk in low mans are about, completing it with less.

I guess that ITEM DUPLICATION glitch didnt happen then....

Kind of weird how so many exobytes flooded the market one time to the point where I could buy a stack of red EXOBYTES for 200k open trade in the watchtower - On USPS3 no less.

What...suddenly people got tired of farming one day and the prices shot back up to several million a stack for them? Pretty sure any item that was stackable was able to be duplicated.

I knew a few players that did do those item duplications. They're still playing. They've been playing. Nothing happened. They were also DIRECTLY CONTACTED by SOE for that glitch as well.

Double post.

I stand by my statement, i would rather have a tank than those serums.

P.s. No, i am not making anything an argument, plz don't assume things, it was a simple question.

It just a correction.

Thanks for staying mostly on topic...which is about the concentration of Serums and Debuff Grenades out there in the community.

@chaoticreign and others

If you read my post in its entirety and comprehend the true purpose, then you will realize I was simply addressing a specific aspect of the serum conversation while leaving the door open for us to adjust said items. This was simply an exercise to show that these are not widespread through the entire population and being used in every single arena match out there. I completely acknowledge that these are likely more concentrated. But, the only way to show how non-prolific they are was to use a model that distributed them out.

Up to this point, the reaction and feedback has been an over generalized "remove serums they are ruining PvP" stance. Now that we have provided some data that sheds some light on the counts the feedback has become more focused on what the "real issue" is. This is a good thing. Now we seem to be hearing it is actually a small subset of players at the very top of PvP on a particular server that has issue with these being overused in their matches. What happens on the forums is less specific and people jump on the bandwagon simply because they think it must be happening all over the place when they hear the over generalized complaints so much - Even more so now that the forums are cross platform. This wasn't helpful to getting to the bottom of the real issue. My post is meant to get the conversation back on track; it seems to be serving that purpose.

Were we to be turning a blind eye, you would not be reading this post, nor would I have left the door open as I have done. Rest assured we'll be keeping a close eye on this and taking action to improve their use in PvP. Additionally, outside the scope of this topic, we have already been discussing tanks in PvP and messaging in our UI concerning buffs, debuffs and many other game effects.

Thanks for taking the time to comment, and understand that we are on your side - in the sense that we want to make sure these things are investigated and addressed accordingly.

@papergirl

I truly look forward to the day when you have the ability to create the match types you desire. We're working on systems to allow for just that. If you want to shun the rest of PvP and set up your own matches with like minded people, you can, but PvP will still evolve and progress around you. You can feel free to cheery pick what you want to ban and not ban in your own private PvP realm.

Spytle if you check most of the links in the Battle forum you'll see the majority of the complaints about these come from Tanks with specific refrrences to having the role subsidized. I know its pretty well 2 topics but they intertwine with each other every time its brought up.

Well this is pretty much the last say I'll have on it now until changes are announced, if any. I'm glad the Tank role is being discussed at least.

Just some food for thought though, this isn't the first time that Tanks have been made redundant through different means and needed attention to it. The group buff almost killed us in raids, even before we became over geared for the content.

The comments about them are widespread and usually appear in any thread where I comment on PvP changes. Not to say you're incorrect, but fom my point of view, and I am active in the community in a lot of ways beyond any specific forum/thread, I get a lot of the generalized condemnation of them. Just letting you know the impression I have overall.

It's because regardless of usage rate, they are blatantly unfair. With a role vs role system it either needs to be there, or not. They might not be used often, but they are when I enter a lair or something as my role. I get them often by non controllers because I'm a healer in small numbers matches. A pvp healer is already an act of strife. I believe depending on what role/class etc you play has a large bearing on how much you see too. If I was dps, I'd probably never encounter them, but as a healer I see them.

Any fix for tanks in pvp should be a way to make them priority targets. The strongest role is a non-target.

Cheers,

Thanks for the comment. We've heard all the feedback on that front. As I said, we're always examining feedback. Right now I'm really only prepared to address the figures I mentioned. If we change something else I'll let you know.

i'll quickly point out that the debuff grenades are useable by all roles against all role buffs - including dps. They certainly aren't useless by any role. players may simply have tactics they like which don't.

^^^^^^^

Just don't see a reason not to do this. What possible negative effect would increasing the reuse have?

@Spytle

Ok when you say shun the rest of the pvp community and things like we will get to cherry pick what we can and cannot ban you are basically saying the competitive e sports like pvpers are morons. Ever time i've brought a decent post up on the forums like my HOMETURF PVP RIOT ACT that u post on saying i'm limiting pvp and ppl like us are close minded is not true at all.

There is a reason why in eports and in real competitive sports when u match a high team vs a high team everything but the bare bones stuff is banned and there are rules. you want to know why? becuase using all that nonsense makes the match in the favor of who has more trinkets and serums and NONSENSE its not skill or player skill at all.

And i watch you in you own words bassically say we are stupid and please don't make me look through your posts and get your quotes because i read them man and you cannot back pedal now. I did give you 2 examples about how you view us with the cherry pic comment and how OH WELL PVP WILL EVOLVE AROUND YOU then sillyness.

You fixed the copter problem in pvp matches and then you introduce Helicopter trinket version 2.0 with henchmen. It causes us to not be able to switch to our focus target immediatly or lunge to the person to counter them becuase all this horse nonsense is in our way. I'm sorry spytle you and your devs have never done a synced competitive premade vs premade match in your own game and you should not put us "esports" like ppl on the back burner WE make pvp not the casualls im sorry but we do. The FOTM in pvp lives and dies by US the hardcore, the loadouts that everyone uses IS US everything cool in pvp is us trend wise so we matter most not the guy pugtgin and doing 3 matches then logging off. There are reasons why we make rules and ppl will follow them unlike when you told me no one will follow my HPRA movement, NEWS FLASH they will i have 10 leagues already that signed it. It is no different from setting LOOT rules in a raid or DUELING Rules. SO your telling me the no super charges and duels wont stick because guess what it has lol.

You can make a user created guidelines all the time and the competitive ppl will follow them, I've seen it happen over and over and i know what I'm talking about i just do. The main reason why your banning all other trinkets from pvp in GU 25 and not HOMEturf is because its a money thing for your company, but newsflash wheather or not you remove hometurf from pvp PPL WILL STILL BUY YOUR DLC so you still make tons of money. It a real problem when i can't focus down my target becuase theres 15 extra npcs in the matches and you can't move and theres to many animations so you cannot see. Please don't tell me about that outline ui fix you guys did becuase guess what it doesnt help the problem we still can't see with all these dumb animations going on.


I am not here to call you or the devs out so please do not misunderstand or lock or delete my post. It is a cry for help from you the devs to stand up and do what is right. Don't ruin pvp so some scrub can pop 5 hometurf trinkets and win the match and hes not even good but still wins.

No I'm not. But you are making it seem like I am. Papergirl, and some others, have been very candid about their opinions. I don't begrudge them their opinion, but I don't always agree. Perhaps it is the toughness of the internet that makes their rhetoric seem so angry. But terms ideas like banning features, reverting mechanics and more are things that they saber rattle about all the time. I'm pointing out that soon they can have a haven of their making - of sorts - and play with like minded people. I look forward to it because they say they want it, and once they get it perhaps they will be happy.

You could not misjudge me more on my opinions regarding competitive pvp, esports and the like. PvP, while not the largest part of the game in population or content, is equally important to us as we planned the future of DCUO in the years to come.

With all due respect, this last bit really doesn't negate everything above it. You were in fact here to call me out...and did so.

Chill out guys, keep it productive. This can either be positive or go absolutely nowhere.

Spytle, props for having the balls to actually come out and address an issue almost no one else would.

While I appreciate the data, I don't think the scarcity of how these items are used can be a justification for leaving them as game-changing as they are. I say game-changing because if you took two teams in the watchtower of equal skill, gear & experience and gave one team serums over the other.. the team without would be completely beaten.

No other consumable in this game has that kind of single significance that could change the outcome of a match. Dampening fields, PI consumables, soders.. nothing. The protection serums are currently in a class of their own. That's the major problem here. If a decision is going to be made to keep serums in, changes have to be made. Specifically, serums have zero drawbacks to using them besides cost & stack limit.. I could unequip my PvP trinket and still be next to impossible to kill with serums alone because they have no real cooldown. I've healed in PvP and know how great of an assist they can be and I do think healers/controllers need a way to defend themselves as they tend to get focused.

If it was up to me, I'd give protection serums the same qualities the breakout trinket has plus it's cool down. Also, if they are indeed here to stay.. the cost needs to go down to level out PvP so that it is readily accessible to everyone or at least premium players. The exclusive club needs to be less exclusive is what I'm saying. I wouldn't call this a "nerf" so much as it would balance some things out. If you've got any other directions you're rather take 'em, let us know.

I think you've touched a good point here;
While these things are very strong, I am pretty sure it's mostly just healers using them.

I've had the debuff nade thrown once at my tank.
I've had it thrown all the time at my healer.
I've never wanted to use a serum with my tank.
I want to use a serum pretty much every second of every match as a healer.

I might sound biased, but if this games' PvP could get away from such a focus on healers, it might bring about other positive changes.
I realize they heal groups, and are a priority, so I don't claim to have some wonderful solution, other than tanks forcing re-targeting (just a switch like a detaunt item, not permanent/time based etc) to them with power use. With the speed of the game, it's the only thing I got.

EDIT* I cite Most Wanted's Friday Night Legends as an immediate source. When one player is the only target, get's ko'd approx 13 times in a match, while all other participants (save the other teams healer) are Ko'd once or not at all, "it ain't right." Look at Daddio through the event for comparison, could pretty much just sit there the whole time doing whatever.

No one needs, or asked for data. Sure you can show numbers and say hey they aren't used that much, however you pick the most general data to prove your point. Many people(Yziah especially I believe?) pointed out the people who use the serums are a very small fraction of the community and that they only use them against good groups. This does not change the fact that they are a huge issue in the game. Not only are they only accessible(in large amounts) to those players who still have/use cheated money and that they take away the necessity of skill. It does not take skill to press 9 on your keyboard to use a serum. PvP, has always been about skill however with the (not all that) recent changes like home turf and the introduction of serums awhile back pvp is just about who has more gimmicks and more money. The issue with serums isn't the cooldown its that they exist.