Might, Power and Support Oh My!

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first of your stating things as fact on your word that not fact and your math is also way off. no one hybrids in full DPS gear and trying to do their role. Clearly, you don't know how to play a battle role. you cant do it in pure DPS gear it has to be a mixture or you won't have the stats to perform your role correctly. I know you'll say that's my point that's what they're doing but no their not if that's what you see that not someone taking advantage as you say that's someone stupid who is a bad DPS in the wrong role and you can't do either role that way. those are just bad players no change can fix that.

No one? Actually I do.

Troll not tank though... I stopped playing multiple toons or I would probably try the other roles as well.

But...But... But... Yeah POT sucks (about half) and insta-power is bad (when is it not), but supply drops, colas, and super charges during the boss fights allows me to restore enough power to the group when they get low to not have wipes/get the job done. I still get the de-buffs/stuns/etc. for the group, and damage is greatly increased from normal troll stance (17K might troll anyone?). I see the numbers (%) Tarif says in a normal runs, around 85 - 95% of the top dps... the adds usually melt before power is ever an issue anyway, so no real impact there...

Do I play this way all the time? Nope, just sometimes, usually depends on the group makeup and what I feel like doing. I normal troll and DPS as well sometimes. I would say around 1/3 of my runs (alerts) now, I elect to go this route.

Do people complain? Sometimes. Some individuals have power hungry load outs, refuse to drink colas and drop their supply drops at the start of the boss fight instead of saving them until they are really needed... In other words it wouldn't matter if I normal trolled or battle trolled they would still run out of power... They are simply bad DPS. Normally when they complain, I just go DPS. Guess what? They run out of power as the role less buff doesn't give them enough either...

How long does the average run take/does it save time? Perhaps a little, of course it depends on the group/how well I keep everyone powered, debuffs, etc.

Is it stupid/make me a bad player? I wouldn't go that far. I look at it as pushing the boundaries of what can be done in support stance damage wise, think a glass cannon troll... admittingly my shields are weaker, my POT is not as great, my insta-power sucks a little more than normal, @ 275 SP, my typical troll numbers are not as high as I would like for them to be. There is a price to pay to play this way and its certainly not for everyone. It is much harder for me than typical trolling or just straight up DPSing, but that's what make it fun. I am a lot more active, and have to be more aware of my own power, when to use those supply drops, SC's, etc.

Do I still perform all my support role duties? Yep, without a doubt, I would not be trolling if I didn't, I would just be a bad DPS, of course that is relative since 85-95% of top damage dealer isn't really that bad... blue bars may not always be full playing this way, but I try and keep them as high as I can. I have far more power in DPS GEAR, than I do in TROLL GEAR, around 7K more...so insta power is always available to use, even though it is slightly weaker.

What instances have I played this way? Solos/Duos/Alerts/Raids. - The raid was one time, and yea we had a normal troll in the group as well. I wouldn't be foolish enough to try this solo in a raid, nor do I think any support role should attempt that.

Does it break the game as some say? I don't think so. I just find it a challenge to play this way, for when I get bored.

Am I score board chasing? Maybe a little now, but initially I was just seeing if it could be done, if I could do it that way and not kill the group...guess what? I can. I started out trying this on my daily stuff, stun and burn baby especially since we get a free bump in stats... then duos, finally attempted an alert, and last a raid.

Is it for everyone? Nope. I would say players need to focus on learning the role first and how to play it more traditionally. You don't want to be a hindrance to the group/cause others to fail, that defeats playing this way.

Why are those that complain wrong? Because alerts are for any group makeup, that includes extreme battle rolling if that's what players want to do. I admit it isn't for raiding, I would be a hindrance trying to solo a raid this way.

I'll stop here. Sorry for the long reply.

Happy Battle Trolling - (sometimes...)

as a troll is the only way that would be possible you couldn't play as tank or a healer in all DPS gear as a troll most people wouldn't even notice as they are always out of power anyway so there more used to it. but as a tank, you will be too squishy and as a healer, you wont have the resto to keep anyone alive both of those circumstances the group would be better with the roleless buff than you actually being there. so I will ceed that for a troll that could be possible but not practical as you would be better served with mixed gear still.

and yet my point still stands even with your build your not doing 90% of the damage that a good DPS can do that's just a absurd percentage. as you have other jobs. a tank cant and they are always hitting the adds more so than any other role

if your setup works for you then i say power too you and happy gaming but if you have been playing for any length of time you will know that it just wont be possiable by anyone not skilled at the game

"if you have been playing for any length of time " - I have played a very long time, I wouldn't recommend this play style for new players.
"even with your build your not doing 90% of the damage" - yes I am. I've calculated the percentages after several runs, usually somewhere between 85 - 95% depending on the level of competition, and how the run goes...

"you couldn't play as tank or a healer in all DPS gear" - I saw a post in this thread about a nature healer doing it. I had a healer (electric) in one in my group the other night trying it, I have seen a few individuals in tank stance do it. Is it widespread? NO. Absolutely not. At least not to the level some players say it is...

as a tank or a healer they might be in tank stance or healer stance but they're not hybrid playing doing it in all dps gear as a tank they won't have the dom to control the adds so not a tank just a crappy DPS and as a healer there heals are worse than the buff so crappy DPS neither one of those can be called battle for both of those roles you have to have mixed gear

for the percentage again your not getting that off a good DPS just average ones maybe. and as a long-term player, I know you have seen the difference

Proxy, those factors would come into play for a player, running battle support characters to actually fulfill their support roles duties.

Your mind is calculating I think, how you would play the role. How good players that we know would play the role. Providing suport to the group AND being able to do good damage in content as well.

I know we are all passionate about the game sometimes, I think thats because we all want a fair shake and have been hit by way to many imbalances, and literally have to fight tooth and claw sometimes when we see something under performing, a role's head getting stepped on, a power not quite jiving right, but to me this is an imbalance I see more and more.

If your not thinking like a good battle support player does, if left to their own devices, do you expect nothing less from many players in game?

Hell no. You know people are gonna abuse many things in this game, not being mindful of the group, much less mechanics. Thats why I see this as such a problem in game.

What I am seeing, and the 90% Im "spouting" about isnt an opinion. Its a base line man, and it is real.

Say for instance an Earth tank and an Earth dps are standing side by side, no SPs allocated, nothing. Just go off what they get by their own Role bonuses in their stance.

A Tank gets benefits, some pretty damned good ones, based off their power, just for being in Tank stance.
While in Tank Role - Earth Tanks gain a Defense bonus and may Transfer damage to a Pet or further increase Defense with Aftershocks.
In Tank role, Defense increases equal to 65% of Dominance while not blocking.
Aftershocks from Jackhammer or Upheaval activate Stone Skin which increases Defense by 55% while not blocking.
A portion of incoming damage will transfer automatically to a summoned Brick Golem.

A dps gets a 10% damage increase for being in damage role.

That literally means, that if a player is using their SPs and allocating them as a dps would while in Earth Tank role, Is wearing dps gear and mods, has no intention of fulfilling their support role duties to the group, and is just going for damage while in tank role, They get ALL the benefits from their power from being in tank role, and the only penalty? They would lose that small 10% damage increase a Dps gets for being in the actual damage role.

They literally have 90% of the damage out at base line, that our actual damage role does - PLUS - this player would gain ALL the survival benefits from his Tank role. Those benefits are insane for losing just 10% damage while not being in actual damage role stance.

Im seeing a lot of these players, everytime Im on. Its annoying, the content we end up running with them is usually a complete disaster - if it gets done at all, and the imbalance I see to our roles, and our powers, has made me want to log in less and less.

I have never had a problem with a battle support build, as long as that player was fulfilling their support role's duties to the group. I think the ones that do it properly, have always been some of the best players in this game. That isnt my issue either.

My issue is how imbalanced the roles are right now, without some further incentive to actually be a dps, or restriction in place for our support that want to run to damage, Im just going to keep going through all the garbage in game trying to run content that I have been. Thats been a nightmare.


I am grateful that the devs listened to some of our feedback. I do not think our roles are balanced properly yet. I do not think they should have messed with Atomic the way they have, Pvp yes, not Pve. In my opinion, they went after the wrong power yesterday. Other problems needed to be addressed more than atomic.

Controllers are in a horrible shape, and I have to say, that most people I do see abusing this role imbalance are mostly flavor of the month type players - which we have a lot of, that are running wreckless by not providing any support to the group whatsoever, and are using it in correlation with the over performing powers right now. Mostly Earth.

You do know me. I see a lot of insults on these forums when I am just trying to get a game that I have enjoyed for years better balanced. I ran the new raid about 7 times last night, multiple 4 man, duos, ect. I got out dps'd one time by one of our league member, so you know that isnt the problem, like many are quick to think, or comment on here as a side step.

I may not know a lot of the technicals of the game like some of you, but I can only address what I am seeing as a problem in the best way I can express it.

Healers are penalized with a restriction because they are support players. I just dont see this as intended that the other two support roles should get all the benefits of their own role and 90% of the damage output as our actual damage role. Its creating nothing but chaos to me in game.

For what its worth, this is they way you should reply in all your threads. Over all, you seemed respectful and I know, at times while trying to make our point, we come across differently then we intend, myself included, so please don't be offended.

Can you answer a few questions please:

Do you see it in raids or is it primarily in alerts?:

What server are you on?:

Hero/Villian?:

Do you record the totals for the run and actually do the math to see these percentages?

If 10% isnt enoufh, overall, how big a number do you need as a dps to feel better about all of this?

For me, I do not see a ton of players using this, only a few, and again only one crazy troll...

From a personal standpoint, when battle trolling, if the group struggles, I switch. My utmost desire is to get through content, not wipe. I have every intent, while battle trolling, to supply the group with ample power, provide debuffs, as well as do my fair share of pew pew, hit switches, turn nobs, get collections, and yes even pick up dead dps.

Based on some of your posts, I know you are against the role less buff, which has all but replaced every role in Alerts except for DPS, and yes most noticeably the troll role has undoubtedly suffered the worst during this revamp, that much I can definitely agree with you.

Tanks do seem to be able to produce pretty good damage numbers, even in tank gear. I would think most healers are not capable of producing these numbers, or I certainly don't see them in my runs. I have to be in COMPLETE DPS gear to come close as a troll, while some tanks are pretty capable even in tank gear.

Balance wise, I think healers should be brought up a bit higher in terms of damage, that 50% deduction is pretty high.

I think trolls should be looked at majorly, increase damage, increase stun times, increase insta power, better yet, I hate the auto pot, do away with it. Replace it with every power I use gives insta power instead of a single sole recharge power... Standing there throwing my hands in the air..wave em like you just don't care... am I clubbing or trolling?

I think tanks still could be toned down a bit, not by a lot, we need to keep in mind support roles need to be able to do sufficient damage in their support classes in all content without it being cumbersome.

If these changes were made, percentage wise, your numbers would look bigger.

have a good day.

Unfortunately again you're missing the point.

What is the role of a tank Tarif? I think you can answer that for yourself.

So if for example (and let's just use earth for an example) the tank is pulling hate from the NPC's and bosses, while also doing "damage" how is that tank 'not doing their support role'.

The whole purpose of the tank is to 'be able to take the hate and survive' the amount of damage they can do is entirely irrelevant as long as they're taking the hate and surviving.

So when you say "they have no intention of completing their support role" that is a complete lie.

When you cast a power in tank role you are going to get the hate for 8 seconds so there's actually literally no way they can fail in this task unless they compromise their stats to the point where they don't survive and if they don't survive they're not going to be doing 90% of the damage of a DPS at all when they're dead all the time.

What you've also got to remember is when the tank is getting all the hate, they're also the one getting most/all of the counters and control effects, so with that being said their damage will immediately be effected by this as well.

Or is your problem with the fact they can spam "jackhammer" seemingly forever without interrupt; now that's a very different issue than just saying "support class shouldn't be able to do damage".

To be honest also Tarif you're spending far too much time worrying about what support players are doing instead of focusing on overall success.

Forget the scoreboard, forget the damage chasing, if you're completing the content and getting your loot then where's the problem?