Just because you disagree, doesn't make the other evil.

Nope..I doubt we'll know for sure for a month or 2. Right now with the changes I can tell you I"ve seen people log in that have not done so in a long time. If they are running clamped raids and having 'fun' they might stay. If they are running FOS3 spams, they likely will not. A new player (like just signed in today) might stay for a while, as now they can get into a lot more content with omni popping, but if looking at 10 years of catch-up, they might burn out quicker than if they had gotten in before the clamp and got to a point where they were 'powerful' enough or with a good league...to get things done. Relying on random queues is not going to do it for most.

As far as subbing goes, I still see it as a benefit, although it's a double edged sword. I still get $16 worth of 'stuff' ($5 loyalty, $5 replays and $6 worth of extra stabilizers) over a premium AND get 3 MORE Destiny tokens($4.50 value), but as many have said for years that the only thing worth subbing for was the cash cap removal...and that's no longer a thing...some might drop the sub. I know on my PC sub, I'm dropping it...mainly because I don't have enough time to support 2 subbing accounts fully, but also the cash cap was a big part of why I subbed her and it's no longer needed. I don't care about the spiffy helmet, but if I did, I'd sub 6 months a year every other month and get all the spiffy items too.

Because I've actually created new characters in the last few days. More specifically, my son and I. He hasn't seen another soul up to level 18. Hundreds of people online, over 100 in the phase he's in. Not a single one near him. 2 years ago when I started a new alt, there were at least 5-6 people that I could actively see engaging in new player content almost at all times of day.

There's a lot more than logic involved here. You get online, see the two decade old engine and graphics and go "I'm out". you get online, see the outdated combat system and go " I'm out". you get online and see the terrible power visuals and go "I'm out", you go online and see the dull and P2W systems like Artifacts of TC feats and go "I'm out". See where I'm going with this? A lot of people are making huge assumptions when saying that stat clamp was THE solution to fix player retention.

It's a step forward (MAYBE, big maybe) if that was the #1 complaint and considering a very miniscule percentage of the player base actually complete the surveys, are active on the forums, are vocal about their complaint, etc. It's hard to tell.

How do you know there aren't?

Again with the anecdotal evidence, hell I can sit here and tell you I've seen hundred of friends log out and cancel their subscription, doesn't make it true across the board.

I've created new characters and I've seen plenty of players, who's more right then?

Uh....yeah I'm just going to leave that alone.


I said 'Good Luck'....

Thats the thing, new players aren't likely to ever complete a survey. The devs have access to more information than we do, and in spite of 7-8 years of anti stat clamping winning the arguments in the forums and in the minds of the devs, they changed it now (potentially too late). I think its a stretch to think they haven't found that this is a problem.

I don't think those other possible problems are fixable problems in this game without getting a new engine, and without more players and more engagement, we aren't getting that. This was not only what I believe was the biggest problem, it was also the easiest problem to attack.

Playing during peak time? How many is plenty of players? I mean, if there is some lucky phase out there that has new players, it sure would help my sons enjoyment of the game to find said answers. He engages a lot with his higher level toon he has on my account. He gets bored with the newer toons quickly because he's by himself. Only the devs will know who is more right, but I have literally never seen anything like what the experience I saw of his and he describes before.

Maybe it's just time people admit to themselves that this game is just old and outdated and that the vast majority (generally speaking, of course) of new video game players are not that intrigued or compelled to play this old a** game, lol. I mean it's plagued with bigger problems that (apparently) can't be fixed and we're sitting here arguing about whether or not making decade old content relevant again will magical fix everything.

I never made that claim.

I work from home and haven't had issues encountering players at all hours of the day, you're bound to have dead periods but that's like any MMOs. Hell I play World of Warcraft and there's time I'll make a new character and the starting zones are dead.

If true, the game won't exist in a year or two. So we should all just leave the game, stop spending any money on it and kill the game? Thats your answer? Give up on ever getting a sequel, or a new engine or anything because of information we can't know is true or not? They should just put it in endgame mode, not do more episodes and just accept "reality"?

I didn't see it get worse, but I see a vocal minority here on the forums barking overwhelmingly loud about the changes because they don't want to adapt or compromise at all.

Its honestly no worse than it was 7 years ago when the possibility of a stat clamp came up in the forums. Same passion displayed, same anger. Just now, the other side won, and most of those who argued for it for years aren't even here to enjoy it.

That's not what I'm saying. If the devs won't show a will to update to game beyond it's age old content, that will happen with time. Look I still play Age of Conan and whenever my son or younger kids see me playing, the first thing they notice and complain about is how old and dated the game looks. New generations of gamers have new standards when it comes to gameplay, graphics, etc. We can't fault them for not wanting to try out these old age games.

My point is that when your dealing with a game like DCUO, you have to pick your battles at this point. I don't have a magical solution either but I sure as hell don't believe forcing new and old players in decade old content will fix the player retention. It might be a step towards that idea but you have to show more openness with dealing with other issues.

My son loves DCUO. He's 9. He's probably not typical because his favorite games are ps3 games right now, plus minecraft and this game. But I still think people overestimate the importance of graphics.

But they have. The more free to play model, the free episodes. Being able to engage with the whole game without paying. These were massive changes as well.

It's not really anecdotal and yes, you can also present other info(and I'd guess if you had 100's of friends who already dropped sub, it's a bad sign...if true). I'm not saying anything is across the board, just what I'm seeing. People ARE logging in to see the changes....but it happens even on a normal DLC. We won't know for sure if they stay for weeks or months. We won't know for sure if people 'get better' because of the changes. We will NEVER really know if people drop subs (although I'd agree they might....I did on one account), or stop logging in entirely, unless you work at DBG.

If you want to argue that anything we don't have hard numbers on is anecdotal, then everything is anecdotal as we are not DBG and won't have hard facts. I can only report what I've seen and draw conclusions from that. I do see people logging in. I also see a lot of vets who HATE the changes and have said they are about done. It seems like DBG is betting there will be more + than - in those counts. We'll never really know the numbers outside of our own personal circles. For me, I don't know anyone who's stopped logging in 100% yet, though when they are on it's a complaint fest for some, including "I'm not renewing my sub"...whether they follow through or not...time will tell. Others say they are having fun...again it's a game numbers...numbers we don't have access to.

I'd say the rapid return of source to endgame says a lot....there were obviously a lot of people upset by the change (and not all here in the forums)...I doubt that survey being sent out was a co-incidence...nor was the reversal to end game source being removed shortly after. If in a month, clamps were removed or made optional, we can take that as a sign that the change is not working as intended. If not, I'd guess they are not hemorrhaging players over it.

But yeah....we'll never 'know' for sure the impact this is having unless the game shuts down in a few months....that should be pretty conclusive.

And don't get me wrong. If they reversed all the changes today, I'd be fine with it....but it's not going to happen unless it's a complete disaster on DBG's bottom line.

EDIT: BTW...I was agreeing with you...we wont' know the full impact for months, which is what you had said in the post I replied to originally.

DC Universe Online is ranked #63 out of 127 tracked MMOs for player populations.
DC Universe Online is estimated to have 342,370 total players or subscribers.
DC Universe Online is estimated to have 9,758 players per day this month.

https://mmo-population.com/r/dcuonline

People definitely underestimate the importance of game engines and graphics. Especially to younger gamers, when you've grown up playing on the machines we have these days, it can be hard for them to jump into dated games.

If they reverse the changes...they won't see any change to their bottom line for me...but it would be an opportunity cost for them. I'm willing to spend on the game... I just will never spend money on a game that I don't enjoy, and I didn't enjoy the game previous to this.