Just because you disagree, doesn't make the other evil.

Guys, seriously. I know this isn't a new fact. I know that every community is toxic that has more than a dozen people or so in it. I get that people are passionate. I do get it. I get every time someone states they feel like they've had something taken away from them. I get every time that someone gets frustrated because the other side is defending allowing a system that ruins players experience.

Most people aren't against the clamp because they actively want to ruin a new players experience. Most people aren't for the clamp because they want to take something from you or be equal to you. People are talking past each other. I'm not seeing much empathy going on right now. Its most evident by neither side trying to acknowledge or even counter the points being made outside of "I know better than you about xxx".

In the end, the stat clamp happened. I believe it happened for a reason. I believe its not optional for a reason. That reason is not to screw end game players. It's not to make you feel weak. Both sides calling the other selfish isn't going to accomplish anything. We have a problem...right? Old instances were dead. New player creation is dead dead. The devs need to attract new players. That's why this happened. You can disagree if you'd like, loudly, but is it really worthwhile to let your emotions get in the way of seeing what others are saying?

Its easier to look for a villain. It's easier to let emotions react to circumstances we don't like. Personally, I've said over and over again, that even back when I first made a DCUO account with Smoke Skirmisher (my first toon).... that there were already people in alerts and raids that were leaving new players behind. I'm pretty sure that was 9-10 years ago now. By 6 years ago... it started really being a problem. It didn't matter what new power there was, or what cool thing it could have. People were falling through the cracks, never even approaching the forum. They were being laughed at and ridiculed for being a noob while they got stuck in the first room of an alert getting destroyed by adds because the others were speed running the instance.

"But that was on your alt, that doesn't mean it was happening to new users". Tell me, how does one do a speed run and check whether a player is an alt or new player? They don't. So my experience with alts DOES in fact have relevance to a new players experience. As power creep has gotten worse, you can't tell me this has gotten better.

You shouldn't feel insulted by this, unless you know you were the type to say screw the new guy, I'm doing what I want. But even if you were the nice guy. You helped the player get through and get to the end... you were still not helping in the end some of the time, because you were a crutch. You lifted them through that level without them actually having to play the game you played before. It wasn't your intention, and some players truly didn't mind or even loved being carried like that, but... when they got to endgame...someone had to come along and teach them how to play their role, but by that time they'd missed out on dozens of hours of potential practice before showing up and slowing down a raid, and frankly likely getting kicked out half the time of those raids as they couldn't learn fast enough.

There were and likely are great leagues that cater to helping inexperienced players, and I praise that. Now that we have this scenario, we can help newer players throughout the entirety of the content. Help them learn the game, not just progress the game.

But remember, for everyone who has serious good intentions in carrying, there are douches that see a bounty, one shot it right when a group is about to engage it, and leave, laughing about it. If you want to call me selfish for wanting a game that takes care of its longevity by trying to cater to newer players to increase their retention...then call me selfish. Its not true.

I'm not calling you a name. I'm not saying you're just trying to do easy mode. I know why you want to get rid of the stat clamp. I just fully believe that the long term health of an MMO I love to play when its working functionally needs to have something to help new players stick around, learn the game, so they don't look/feel like a joke at endgame until they get overpowered again. I believe that other MMO's have done so. I believe that if we had the new player population to support it being optional, we could absolutely do that. But my son just started a new character on his ps4 account. All the way to level 15 he hasn't seen a single other player doing the under 30 missions around him. Not a single one.

He was probably just in a bad phase.

I mean, when one side of the debate largely point blank refuses to compromise in any way, I don’t know what else they expect people to think.

What would be a workable compromise? They've already undid the source mark endgame decision. Making it optional isn't a compromise. Its eliminating the purpose of the change entirely.

In USPSPC, I only see three phases. One PVP and two PVE. PVP being completely barren, the other two having similar numbers in each.

How is making it optional eliminating the purpose? Source marks and omnibus credit will ensure plenty still run clamped. Sometimes the carrot is more effective than the stick.

Nah this changes (free to play) should start 10 years ago now people prefer to play some new title .There are tons of it for free ,

When combined with end game source marks.... and the fact we are talking about a majority of players actually being endgame players right now that have most of the old stuff that they want. Even if its a 20-30% reduction in players using the system, it'll harm que times, which will harm the purpose of the change. I'd suspect the change that has already happened will lower usage by that much.

At that point, other than feats, what else is the reason to go into old content at all? Most people don't stay online for 5 hours or more a day to be able to run all the dailies for all three relevant content, then go into a raid thats going to potentially take an extra 30-40 minutes because they are dealing with new players. There isn't enough carrot now. Because the carrot was also added to endgame.

Anakin- If you are not with me..... you are my enemy.

Obiwan- Only a Sith deals in absolute.


It would seem that the truly EEViLLL ones are those who cannot agree to disagree..... seeing how it makes them EEViLLL Siths.

Right, but the people who are *that* mercenary were already just spamming FoS3 and/or Doomsday. Those people were never going to be of any use to you or your son anyway. I’m not against clamping, I’m really not.

Been having a great time going back to Atlantis, and although I was initially leery when old alerts were in my journal again, I’ve actually been having a bit of fun with them. Certainly more than I would have unclamped. If it became optional, I would still run clamped 99% of the time, based on my experience so far.

But I’m concerned about a tiny subset of content I couldn’t enjoy or finish until I was significantly higher cr. If “git gud” was a plausible option for me, well it’s been 7 years, I think that ship has sailed despite my best efforts. Do you see my dilemma?

I see your dilemna, but as the developers said, they never intended every feat to be accomplished by everyone who wanted to do those feats. And I believe you are in the minority, because you do seem to have fun in the clamped content. I won't get those feats either, because I don't have the time availability to be able to do them. I'm also not a top level player, so theoretically at some point I could/will run into something I cannot complete.

I truly believe that if feats are possible without a clamp... very few people will ever run the clamped instance at all. People don't naturally want to help newer players. Honestly, endgame players with substantial SP may never run clamped instances now that source marks are back at end game. They don't need thousands of source marks. And yes, the spamming of one or two instances further complicates things.

Maybe the game is just done. Maybe its just time to let it sail into the sunset, but I don't believe thats what the developers want. I think they want to gain momentum so they can justify working on a sequel with better graphics etc.

My thing is are people going to ask for rewards for doing unclamped? And if so, isnt that going to make doing it clamped pointless since players will take the path of least resistance?

The rewards they are asking for are feats, from what I understand. Most of them anyway.

You’ll never persuade everyone, of course. But you could persuade some people, I believe. For me personally, a clamped instance would:

1) No source marks or credit for Omnibus, that should go without saying.

2) I would reinstate loot locks on unclamped runs. If you’re waiting 4+ episodes to run, you’re clearly willing to play the long game. People will have to run clamped if they want to endlessly farm pets or Dark Robins or whatever to sell.

There are 40 episodes to run. You can farm the entire game unclamped if you get rewards from it. Daily. Nobody would run clamped that didn't like it. You would be removing most of the carrot...as well as the stick.

Source Marks and rare drops like Dark Robins that they can sell on the broker are the thing that will always keep people coming back. Once people have the other things they need from an instance, they will likely never return to it, clamped or not.

My offer comes from a firm understanding of current player culture, I assure you.

Well, me and some of my friends have agreed on simply not going back to old instances, because they are not worth the time and effort and I've heard others say the same thing. It's not a priority to go back, so would that make them even more dead than they were before?

Before the stat clamp, raids such as ZOOe and PANe would take 5-6 minutes max. Now they can take around 20+ minutes with a pug group if you're lucky lol. A lot of new players have no idea how to do old raid mechanics, so that also takes time to explain and even then you can still end up wiping and wasting more time.

Couple days ago, I ran Throne of The Dead (Elite) with some pugs and it was pure hell. We spent an hour trying to beat the whole thing. Sure, people might have been at fault for simply not willing to listen, but my opinion is that we shouldn't struggle in old content.

Why do we gear up? Why do we have artifacts, allies, skill points and so on if we will get nerfed anyway? To me that should've been optional. If I wanted to struggle in a T2 instance, I'd simply take off my gear and artifacts then deliberately go waste my time, lol.

And while it might not be a big deal to some, to others is time consuming and not fun. Not everyone has 5+ hours per day to play the game.

Some of my friends are quite busy in real life, so during business days all they can afford is 30 minutes online to do dailies and even then it could take longer than that, let alone go for an old raid and spend eternity in it.

Another bothersome thing is that for some players feats will be close to impossible to complete. Some of them rely on the fact that as we progress through the game, older content becomes easier therefore feats are more attainable.

And now that's sort of eliminated even though you still have time to complete a feat in an easier way as long as you're in the last 3 DLC's range by simply getting more geared up for it, but even then you shouldn't feel pressured to complete it before it gets stats clamped.

For example, a lot of players are currently going crazy over FGSe. They're trying to get the omega beam & no death feats done, because once the stats clamp reaches Wonderverse content, these feats will be quite hard to get.

They won't be impossible with good groups who know what they're doing, but I personally don't see this helping new players.

I understand that the majority is quite happy with the changes and that's fine, but not everyone is okay with it. We weren't asked if we liked the idea and I don't remember seeing anyone suggest having stats clamp happen either.

But, look locking dark robins and the like for these instances means they never need to run it clamped. They can get their source marks from current content, then run the instance once a day. I'm seriously wondering how much time people are spending on this game. Because, the age of the game would portend that most veteran players are at least in their lower 20's by now. I mean, I know I work more than most because I have to.... I'm sorry. I 100% feel that your compromise would be no different than eliminating it entirely.

As I speak, people are making groups to repeatedly farm certain instances like Atlantis: The Throne for Seahorses. They are fully taking advantage of the lack of loot locks.