Dev Discussion Episode 31: 'The Threat Below' Raid

Just to start with a slightly more general sense.

I agree buffing content after it goes live is counter productive at that point the horse is well and truly bolted.

This is again a somewhat comedic thing with some of the people who play this game; some have even given feedback.

They're quite happy to exploit the difficulty of raids to grind out feats and elite gear themselves then come to the forums and complain about how easy it was.

It's very duplicitous to purposefully take advantage of something then come an complain about something so others have to face a challenge greater than they did. (This isn't aimed at you btw)

I acknowledge what you're saying about beating content day one and building up to elite a bit.

Unfortunately though the devs have designed a system that also fights against that.

A feat that when transferes reduces gear inferior to it. Naturally to be most efficient people are going to go straight to elite if that's what they're capable of.

The DLCs are timed in a way where without resetting you'll get the gear done just before the DLC concludes ready for the next.

Replaying content absolutely does trivialize the content prematurely, you're taking days to gear up instead of the weeks it would normally take.

It is one thing to say it's easy at 224 and another to say its easy at 234.

A lot of the videos clearly show players 234 or even 238 in the first weekend trivializing the content and complaining yet they've effectively passed the entire dlc in one weekend where its then designed to be more comfortable.

I mean let's be real here for once, perhaps some of these people need to slow their roll a little or at least be a little more genuine in their feedback.

Now yes there were tweaks that were needed absolutely I'm not saying there wasnt but I think some people also purposefully neglect context sometimes.

Really, there is no argument here. You fully admit that you ignore mechanics when it suits you.

Please continue to preach, but the case is closed.

I’m going to chime in here one more time and say that the group that kicked me was definitely (from my perspective) trying to ignore mechanics in favor of maximizing boss burn. We wiped twice before they kicked me, on the second wipe I had grabbed quicklime to stop the Starro adds from spawning, because I had noticed nobody was doing that. Then I found myself kicked.

I don't have to say anything else since you just confirmed it's ignoring mechanics.

Thanks for playing

I don't have an end-game level water healer, so I can't comment on the abilities water healers have (I mean, I know it's based around shields and everything, lol) only nature, celestial and electric. My question is, do water healers have a deficiency to make up for their strength of shields? Nature for example is great because of the DoTs, the healer can literally die and get picked up and the rest of the group is still fine most of the time. Downside? Burst heals are weak and reapplying all DoTs every boss fight takes a lot of power.

Celestial has awesome burst heals, some decent DoTs, balanced shields and heavenly D) supercharges. Like a jack of all trades, solid at all things but not extremely strong in any one thing. But reapplying DoTs constantly takes a lot of power and requires very good timing.

So what's water's weakness? Does it have one? If not, it needs to. Otherwise I'd be just a worried as Fatal (not about the whole ignoring mechanics thing, since the devs can easily workaround that with buffs, etc.) about FoTM healing powersets. I do notice that water healers are around a ton lately (the bane of my tanking existence besides the Zeus SC).

What he's pointing out is that it is a genuine strategy to shield or move.

You're quite happy to say DPS the tentacles but ignore the same thing in PANe because the robots have higher health.

The reality is Fatal your view is that you prefer it to be a DPS check, which is fine.

The problem arose when you attempted to make others peoples methods seem inferior when in reality that simply isn't the case at all.

This isn't a game either in terms of your "thanks for playing" comment.

It is important that devs be given proper feedback not feedback that amounts to

"Lazy players are abusing their shields" like they could actually be abused in the first place.

Then in this case i would prefer a nerf to the beam because u cannot block while carrying the stone to close the vents. Ive seen too many people drop like that.

How about this, applied to my experience: “lazy players are trying to force certain playstyles”

(Since you edited )

Haha

No proxy, what he's doing is trying to point out hypocrisy by being hypocritical himself. It's only ignoring the mechanics as long as it suits his narrative of trying to accuse someone else of having double standards. Not dpsing the bots in PanE and focusing owlman is ignoring mechanics but popping SC sheilds to avoid burning the tentacles so you can focus aquaman is strategy? Guess as long as it fits your PoV huh?

I stand by what I said. I think the shield strategy is biased to certain healer powers, and I feel you should HAVE to kill at least one tentacle. I have my opinion and you have yours.

Let me ask you this though, is it strategy for healers to pop sheild SCs on Ultraman when he does his heat vision? Cause they're strong enough to absorb it. I've seen up to 80k absorbed by a group transducer before. Is that strategy as well?

I don’t know if it would work on elite, but on regular I always just pop blessing when he fires his heat vision... (partly because the screen is so chaotic I’m usually not sure which way I’d need to move to avoid it)

In elite it's intended to one shot through pretty much anything so you're supposed to stay frozen in the ice until he finishes his heat vision, but some healer and troll SC sheilds can absorb enough damage to keep you alive. I wonder why people didn't just rotate sheilds then?

I'm sorry for going way off topic though, if the devs want some feedback, my opinion the tentacles should do a lot more damage if both are left up. I don't like the idea of certain powers being favored over others.

Water Healing is fun, Its more of a Burst Heal, Shield, and Semi Hot Type of Healer (8 Player Shield (Acts as a Semi ( 6 secs) Preventive Damage Hot) + Burst Heal After, If Utilized/Activated the High Tide Mechanic And Vice Versa (Burst Heal + Semi (6 Secs) Hot) with the High Tide on the 8 Player Heal. While Spotting/Rotating the Group (4 Player) Heal and Single Heal (Either its Mechanic Refresh (Tsunami) Heal or its Regular (Soothing) Heal) in your Rotation. (The High Tide Mechanic Gives me More Flexibility and Allows me to Move Freely).

Each Healer has Similar Abilities and can be Played Similar or Differently to an Extent. At least I play mine more with Utilizing the High Tide Mechanic but Water Healing also has the Rip Tide Mechanic. So players can play Normally just like any Healer and then Utilize their Mechanic as a Bonus. It's all about Timing and Rotation.

The other Healers Mechanics are Embedded in their Heals, if you're using Them/Their Main Heal (Elec's Burst Safety Net). Water has to Slot a Extra Ability which is only used in Conjunction with another Ability to get that Bonus/Mechanic (Once Per Rotation Mostly) Heal. (Similar to how Nature use to be. *It's mechanic offered some power back*).

I would say Water is more Timely Based or Position Based Depending on your Choice in Load Out and Play Style. The Full Hot (Solace) that it has Requires Positioning similar to Sorcery but their Hot Drops Under Them and not their Target. It's a fun power, Maxing Critical Healing and Restoration helps a lot. (It's Weakness is always the Player and the Timing/Knowledge of its Abilities), (Just like any Healing Power to be honest and of course the Group and Content/Mechanic that is being Run Plays a Big Part as well in how Smoothly Everything goes).

Water can play almost like the other Healing Powers so it's Good to Know how each Ability Works. (I can go on but I think this Covers the Main Points and I'd rather not derail the Thread anymore but this was slightly Related to Healing Advantages mentioned in this Thread for this Raid and Possibly others).

I totally agree with this 100%. Otherwise what's the point of even creating these mechanics in the first place?

I think what's going on is we have a discussion of what is vs. what the devs probably intended it to be.

1. Is players using shields to protect themselves, stay alive and focus on burning down the boss (in any raid, not just this one) cheese? No. It's not. It's one option for facing a challenge.

2. Did the devs go to all the trouble of creating tentacles that pop out of the floor just to look pretty (well, that's subjective I guess, maybe Celine Dion pretty) and make people nervous? I doubt it. Especially since they reduced the health of the tentacles in the latest hotfix to make them able to be burned down in time. If they intended this to happen, they would've just given Aquaman a skull tell and have him do raidwide damage at set intervals. Or leave the 4 tentacles like used to happen in the raid.

So, some people are defending freedom to run raids the way you want without being looked down upon. I agree. Fatal seems to be focused on making the encounter something more than just pew-pew-pew (well, still pew-pew-pew, but with style). I agree with that too. The solution is simply for the devs to enforce their view of what they want to happen.

Different mechanic now your comparing apples to oranges.

Notwithstanding that point if shield was capable of saving someone if they accudentally broke out the yes.

Or even if people purposefully broke out to maintain burn.

Im sure people did try that strategy and when it didn't work they moved on.

Worth the case of the tentacles the shields are there to be used if required for a reason they provide a meaningful opportunity and strategy too overcome the raid.

If everyone was to play to your strategy if the dps failed the burn check it means wipe after wipe after wipe and eventual disbanding.

That is far more damaging to the community than your assumption people are going to exclude all the celestial or nature players.

Like I said it's about knowing your group, knowing the actual mechanic and overcoming the mechanic.

Just because you do it a certain way doesn't make it wrong any other way.

Take a look at paradox pillar tanking in the day too you didn't have to do it but it was an effective strategy, maybe that was lazy too.

There's no right or wrong way to do things there are ways that work and ways that don't.

I believe Both of you have Good Points. Strategy is Very Important. And Shields are meant to be Used/Rotated when needed.

I think what is being Misinterpreted or Just Missed Entirely is the Point that was trying to Made, Which is that Players are Completely Ignoring the Mechanics whether that be in this Raid (TTB) or another Raid (PAN) as mentioned in this thread. You can't Expect One Player to be able to take on a Specific Mechanic Alone (Damaging Bots/Tentacles), Especially if they aren't Geared enough/Overly Geared to maybe do enough Damage in Time before the Timer Runs out for those Specific Mechanics. (I know that wasn't Said or Expected, but it Forces One way when the Majority are Only Focusing on One Thing).

My Point is this Type of Decision Forces Everyone to Participate as if the Masses are taking this Route the Individual or Individuals do not have any other Choice (Besides Forming a Group with Players who Prefer to Do the Mechanics) as they will be Wasting their time any other way as they won't be able to do it on their own (Since it's not Meant to be Done Alone for a Raid/End Content) and this Eventually becomes the Normal for the Rest of the Community.

As Mentioned though, Strategy is good and I Completely agree. I feel though Rotating the Shields are to Help Prevent damage and should be done no matter what, mainly if you Fail to meet the Timer or if an Additional Threat is still there. But what is happening is Players are Completely Ignoring a Mechanic Simply because they can.

Perhaps a Better Strategy would be for the Tank to try and get the Boss to the Nearest Tentacle if the Group Prefers to Continue to do Damage to the Boss. This way the Tentacle is taking some damage as well and may be defeated as well in time. This should help Eliminate some of the Damage Risk that would Potentially take out Players if it were to Remain. And Shields can still be used as an Emergency in case there is another Tentacle up and Close.

That is just another possible Strategy that doesn't entirely Ignore the Mechanic. And this is just my View on the Subject. I'm not saying anyone is wrong but I' am only Pointing out the Situation in a more Clear View and in Terms of what happens when one Method is Preferred over another. It becomes the Normal as mentioned and One Player shouldn't be to Blame as Everyone Plays a Part in that Situation Simply because it Can be Done. And if the Masses are Doing it then they will be the Only Lone Wolf trying to go Against it.

To the contrary Fatal 'appears' to want it to be nothing but pew-pew-pew.

He sees the tentacles as a DPS check and nothing but a DPS check, neglecting the fact that it can equally be seen as a support check in allowing the healers/controllers to shield the group thus mitigating the damage rather than eliminating the damage.

For some reason though actually co-ordinating and using these shields is seen as "lazy and inferior" to what "pew pew pewing" a tentacle... is that not somewhat laughable right there?

This is correct

An effective and efficient group would be doing both, burning down the tentacles and also rotating the shields - nothing would be left to chance.

The trouble with moving the boss to the tentacle would be damage split, but in certain groups that isn't necessarily a bad idea if the overall burn is enough but the players are struggling to switch their targets.

We have to remember that not all runs are 'pure league' runs so converting an effective league run might not necessarily convert to running with PUGS which bring with them their own dynamics, but not dynamics to the point where they're incapable of running the content or shouldn't be in there.

Maybe because the dps don't have to follow any mechanic in the latter case. They don't even have to switch targets. Or move, at all. Or jump. Or anything else. Like I said, what's the point of even having the mechanic then? Why didn't the devs just give AM a periodic raidwide damage attack?