Dev Discussion Episode 31: 'The Threat Below' Raid

Hey folks!

We've done some work to add to and improve the 'Threat Below' raid since it was first released last year. Of particular note is that we reworked some boss fight mechanics and added an Elite version. So now, there are 3 versions of the Raid: Event, Normal, and Elite.

This is the thread I'll be monitoring most closely for any feedback on any version of this raid.
If you have any feedback or run into any issues, please specify which difficulty you're testing, and any other information you find pertinent.

Thanks, and I hope you enjoy!

Hey JackFrost couple things about this raid for Elite.

CONTROLLED AQUAMAN

• Aquaman's whirlpool attack does not deal nearly enough damage. You can stand in this as a DPS and be completely fine. The damage should tick for maybe around 13-16k to feel deadly enough to have players be encouraged to avoid it.
• The tentacles have a line of site issue currently, I have a video guide showing that this is most likely not intended. You can hide in the windows of the room to avoid line of site from one tentacle shockwave, if your intention is to have us kill at least one tentacle then us being able to hide in the windows needs to be removed.
• The tentacles seem like they may have too much HP? Even with a team of 230 CR DPS we could not burn it down to even half. If this is intentional then I am fine with it as it encourages us to raise and gear ourselves.
• The hatcheries need to be more deadly if you miss one during the Aquaman fight. There is also a ton of time to be able to plug the vents. Tighten up the time window as well as spawn maybe 2-3 Starros instead of only one to encourage players to really step up and plug the vents.

STARRO THE CONQUEROR

• Starro has an attack that he does when he moves into his defensive position, from what I remember last year it was a beam that would hit the entire room in a clockwise fashion. Currently I don't think this is working as no beam even comes out of Starro.
• Starro's spins around the room and just knocks players around. Currently this does not do damage, does not seem intentional. This should not be a one shot but should be encouraged to be avoided.
• The Juvenal Starro's seem to have a bug where if you lunge them sometimes this will kill them in one hit. Other times this will still mind control you. Please comment on this whether it is intentional.
• Starro's Beam that causes the fire damage seems to do low damage. I would rather this have a skull icon and possibly encourage players to block.

I will be posting a guide video that shows most of these concerns or bugs(?). Please let me know if you need anything else hopefully!

Thanks for the feedback, Vagrant! I'm looking into some of the things you posted.

Just to address some of these more directly, we've made some changes which I hope will make it out to the Live servers soon (maybe not today though). Again, these changes are in the pipeline:

• The issues where the Tentacles in the Aquaman fight couldn't be hit by all player attacks will hopefully be resolved. I believe this will help resolve your feedback that they appear to have too much health.
• On a similar note, the windows were never intended to be a safe space to avoid damage from those Tentacles.
• Aquaman's whirlpool (called "Water Elemental" in the combat log) should do more damage in Normal and Elite mode.
• The time limit to transport the Quicklime into the Hatcheries has been reduced for Elite mode.
• I'm not sure if Starro had an attack like you described last year or not. He does do something sort of like you describe, but he shoots out a bunch of little Starros that can mind-control players. Let me know if that's not in/working for some reason.
• Starro's "Charge" attack wasn't doing damage when it should have been. A forthcoming fix will make it do damage.
• The fire-causing "Double Beam" attack has had its damage adjusted for Normal and Elite modes.
• We'll need to investigate the issue you describe with the Juvenile Starros further.

Thanks again for your help!

Awesome thanks for the adjustments, its actually really exciting to hear all these it makes us players feel very important!

The Starro attack that I thought was a beam just stuns us, no mind control, was it intended to mind control players not blocking?

A couple of things. I think my fix for the 'charge attack' on the Conqueror may have only gotten half in. So it'll still not do damage in elite for a couple days. That attack he does where he spins around spitting out the little Starros just stuns players, and then little Starros appear on the ground, which can mind-control players as an effect of that.

Ah got ya, it just seemed like it should do more than that. But if it is intended to just stun it is working as intended.

Glad these changes are being made, because elite is kind of a joke. I'll echo what vagrant said that the whirlpool needs to be buffed, I saw it coming towards me and didn't think to move right away and it just tickled.... The tentacle mechanic is pretty cool though, but the healers and tank rotating shield SC's pretty much prevented anyone from dying.

Also the attack where starro spits put mini starros is indeed not working. At least if you're blocking, not sure if it's intended to mind control through block, but all it did was stun you. Starro himself was kind of harmless overall anyway...

Also to note for some reason when in that raid the Metropolis music will play? Just seems a bit weird.

All I see is complaints

Complaints before buff.
Complaints after buff.
Lol it's all the same.

So... NOW Apparently Starro Is Constantly Sporadically 1-Shotting People.
There NEEDS to be a Tell for that Beam
IS it Distance Related?
EVERYTIME We go for the Rocks People DIE

ALSO Most Times when he Spits out the Juvies NOTHING is Happening. No Juvies appear

This is in Elite Btw
Only way we could beat it was Constant 8 Man Shield Rotations

So what is it supposed to be? Design it so everyone just dies? You may argue people should concentrate on dps’ing the tentacle instead, but does that not require the same (or lesser) amount of knowledge, power and communication as rotating sc shields?

If you look at the comments of those saying it’s “too easy”, there is a common thread - they believe players shouldn’t be able to do an elite raid on day one and should have to gear up first. What they are actually asking for is a “gear lock”. They want a raid you can’t even try until you’ve gotten x number of regular gear from the current DLC (maybe even a full set).

Would “gear lock” be an aggravating system worse than progress points? Yes. But it’s how to address the elite complaints. It forces people to progress at the slow rate the elites want, but it also keeps elites from beating it day one and claiming they are bored and unhappy with nothing to look forward to. Will it create a new class of player who bought enough replays to get past the gear unlock on day one? Sure. So be it. That’s the player’s fault for buying their way in (along with seven friends so that they can have a group). Daybreak won’t be sad over any of that.

To my memory, that move did not mind control last year either - it only stunned. The idea I got from it was that Starro is spitting out starfish which hit you and stun you but ultimately bounce off and hit the ground (which are the juveniles that appear). The logic would be like Ridley Scott’s Alien - face huggers didn’t just latch on; the egg had to wake up and open first.

Not exactly, I like the tentacle mechanic and I like having to communicate with the rest of your group to rotate shields. Burning the tentacles isn't really an option unless you have 5 monster dps, they burn pretty slow and have a quick timer before they go off. That's not my issue with this boss fight though, my gripe is how aquaman is pretty much harmless otherwise. I'm sure after the whirlpool fix he'll be slightly harder, but there's nothing else that really poses a threat unless someone forgets to clog up the baby starro pot in the center, then you'll have adds, that's really it though. The tentacles are the highlight of that fight. Imo it needs more to it. Maybe he can spawn ground pools that you have to avoid, SOMETHING.

if you read my previous replies in the elite threads, i'm against the idea of elite requiring to complete a set of gear to beat. It's illogical with the way gear scales and how the reward system is set up. You're supposed to run elite instead of reg each week, then if you run everything else like you;re supposed to, you;ll have enough marks to buy each piece as you unlock them with renown. Once you complete the elite set, the price will reduce for the normal set, then you can go back and finish that. That's how it's SUPPOSED to work. You're not supposed to grind a full set of normal gear just to beat elite, so my personal opinion the idea of a gear lock is pointless and negates how the system is set up.

I just want challenging elite raids that don't feel like it's a slightly enhanced version of normal, I'm not asking for eye bleeding wall banging impossible, we can save that for SM.

That would make sense as to why the juveniles only appear on one half of the room, you can pretty much stand next to starro and be safe as long as you block his ground pound skull attack, so you can avoid the juveniles altogether. I feel they should spawn through out the room so players have to actually be aware of their surroundings.

One shot double starro beam or something...ridiculous. Lol, im done with renown as of last night but ran ttbe earlier and that was a new move that he wasn’t doing yesterday.

Right, almost like people are giving feedback, strange.

You're right that his spitting out the juvies didn't even mind control anyone. Only stun and leave juveniles on the floor.

As far as whether it should be obligatory to dps the tentacle, the answer is yes, that's the mechanic, while also evading the starros, avoiding the whirlpool and aquaman's attack. So yes, it should wipe the group if you don't succeed in killing it. Otherwise what's the point? They may as well get rid of it and just have aquaman do a raidwaid attack if the tentacle serves no purpose.

Now, there's a small one, medium and large. I propose either 1 of 2 things.

1. Small takes about half of everyone's bars, even with shielding (non-blocking, unshielded are hanging on by a thread). Medium leaves everyone hanging on by a thread, even with shielding and blocking (like 10-20% health remaining). Obviously tank fares slightly better. Large one is an automatic group wipe if not destroyed.

2. Tentacles spawn one at a time, offering enough time to dps them down before the next one spawns. However, they don't disappear after their attack, so if the group continues ignoring them, eventually they have 3 or 4 up, resulting in a guaranteed group wipe.

This is for elite, of course. For regular, I wish they were buffed only slightly so the large one would one shot dps who aren't blocking or shielded. As is, in regular there's no reason to stop dpsing aquaman at all, since the small one tickles, medium is a pinch and large makes you sneeze, lol.

It's a move he always did, but it was bugged and not working properly. I was under the impression that it always targeted the person furthest from Starro, meaning that having two tanks or someone with a shield supercharge waiting is helpful.

Yes, it attacks the furthest person from starro. Use two tanks and should be fine.

Also, did they buff the damage from his spin attack? That was a cool mechanic I wish they'd return to elite. It basically one-shotted anyone but the tank (and even took tank's health down a lot). But there's a twist. He only does it when someone's standing behind him. It's designed to keep the group from bunching up at the back of the room and deal with the juveniles.

Ran TTBE 3 times today, it really feels different and i liked. It´s pretty doable if people play as a team.
Kudos Devs.