Test Discussion Solar Amplifier Bug

To piggy back that,
Any business is in it to make $. Nothing wrong with that.
Issue is, watching this play out....
1) a year of silence an it still wasnt safe to spend even tho all evidence said it was ok an nothing was changing
2) now what incentive or what amount of info will it take to get us to spend again?
Confidence is massively shaken. Personally, now i dont care what info is available. Makes no dif what the descriptions says (or doesnt say) because on a whim (as AV proved with hard data) they can nerd said item anyway.
The devs nerfing this rather than correcting the description to reflect the balanced result all while NOT addressing the issues like how the “installs empowered channeling” doesnt reliably work an allow u to stay in channel tells us nothing is safe.

The damage is done an now they are in a “no win“ situation (self inflicted).
BUT i see a potential solution that shouod appease most and regain some confidence.
1) admit the fault and neglect and apologize publically
2) correct the lack of communication on these things moving forward
3) leave art as is (AV proved with data its balanced) and change description to reflect its actual operation
4) fix the rank 200 effect to apply properly so that when we channel various powers we are not interupted

Just the situation as i see it and how i see that they can quickly and easily rectify it

Welcome back to the game.

When Solar 1st came out and the max level was 160, the damage on the explosion did split and dots were smaller than they are now.

Solar was not being used in AOE rotations at the time. Two things happened after that, the increase to 200 and this issue of the damage not splitting, and the introduction of Trans and Strat.

I can understand your POV of a player returning to the game and not knowing how the Artifact functioned originally.

I wouldn't even request a public apology. A simple: "Okay, we've decided to adhere to the community response, and leave the artifact unchanged, whilst addressing the issues presented regarding the artifact: Dot, channeling, improper function while changing targets Erich causes the explosion to negate and not spread DoT."

I would consider that a pretty reliable apology/rectification.

Whilst I am furious about the artifact in the sense that I feel robbed, and will be very cautious about any future purchases/time investments: the quote above would certainly be a sign of good faith that they take into account actual numbers (from AV's showing factual numbers), and not just community "opinions."

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just being fair. For anyone who was Solar when it 1st came out, it was always a ST artifact. When it got increased to 200 it was only supposed to add extra might and empowered channeling.

Something happened, intended or not, and the issue is being corrected.

If you bought a car, and sometime later the company issues a recall on a specific part that isn't functioning properly, the offer to fix for you at no cost. They don't give you a refund, a free trade in, etc.

We have ST power, an Artifact that primarily boosted ST damage.

Most of the players were leveling Solar to 160 when it was Max level when it wasn't being used for AoE, so not matter what people would have spent money on this artifact.

For those players who came back after the boost to 200, the discovery that damage didn't split at 200, and the lack of communication and transparency from the Devs, I completely the understand the feeling of being misled.

In regards to the intentions of the Artifact, it was always for ST and was never advertised as being anything other than that.

HV yes it was always for a single target ... but what is the claim that SA is for a single target based on? if at the first appearance 2 of 3 bonuses are intended for an AOE situation. Even after level 200 and 4 bonuses are in the lead, this is still 50% of the bonuses for the AOE situation. Even if the developers somewhere on the forum said that this is an artifact for a single target, then in the game itself, in the description of this is nowhere to be found. The fact that the damage is not splliting became widely known already in the first month after level 200, given that 2 out of 3 bonuses are intended for AOE, it was very logical to assume that bonus 4 is a development of the previous two. Let's be honest with the EC mod as a 4 bonus for 1 million experience (that's $ 120) this is not an adequate bonus.

Just to clarify one point for the devs: the version of the artifact that you see in our data, which is showing it slightly underperforming relative to other artifacts on 8-targets and drastically underperforming relative to other artifacts on 3-targets (note: that's how non-split damage in this game is designed), is the current live version of the artifact. Ie. Its current form has been proven to be average/balanced if you don't touch anything about it. This is in terms of both actual % artifact contribution and in terms of rotation performance.

Obviously this also means that the average performance of the current iteration, since non-split DPS has to be determined as an average of 3-target performance and 8-target performance, of builds with the artifact is slightly behind the performance of builds without the artifact while still being close enough to make it an option for players (which is what the guide is getting at). This is also to be expected and predictable since Solar both takes up an entire artifact slot to buff a single, slow power and it prevents us from using our strongest rotations and certain other powers since we have to optimize around the Solar,, taking the place of stronger alternatives like Lernaea's Amulet, which can always be used in hallways and which buffs -all- powers and -all- damage.

As was also shown, if the nerf goes through then it will no longer be a balanced or viable artifact option and it will underperform. This also looks like it's going to have the unintended consequence of essentially forcing at least one power to use short-range melee builds for hallway AoE while with the current version they have access to balanced melee and ranged options (but with the melee still able to edge out builds using the current iteration).

When I have a sec I'll better explain how DPS has to be calculated for different rotations, because I'm under the impression some people and maybe the devs think 8-target DPS = rotation DPS here, which isn't the case, because the presence of any non-split source requires us to average the best and worst cases. I may have been guilty of leading to people thinking that in the guide so I'll try to clarify it there too but the only reason any/all non-split hits so hard on 8 targets is because they are pitiful on 3-targets and their actual DPS is the average of the two performances. I thought that was common knowledge but now I'm second guessing myself.

Obviously if someone only looks at 8-target performance for a source like that they will reach the false conclusion they're stronger than they are by neglecting the fact that the degree to which they underperform on 3-targets is equivalent, because game balance has always required it for the average DPS to be on par with other -split- sources... Which it is... The devs did a tremendously good job on that balance in almost every non-split's case, the only exception being Strat which was initially balanced but became a bit overturned when it got buffed. Non-split's are basically the power version of the Trans philosophy: our worst damage gets worse and our best damage gets better, but the average remains balanced. Judging a non split based on its 8-target performance is like judging Trans by a parse where we only got Crits. It feels like this situation has nothing to do with the actual artifact and everything to do with certain people not understanding how non-split damage was designed.

We can reduce that because the dots are fairly weak, like most PI dots on power sets and the explosion at 120 and 160 were splitting on the adds but not causing massive damage to them, it was still primarily ST damage. The AoE damage wasn't very significant.

Using Solar in AoE rotations didn't become popular until Trans and Strat came into play. That's where Solar took off and the lack of damage splitting really shined with the increased crits and the dots critting thus procing Strat on multiple adds.

It was clearly a primarily ST art before level 200 and Trans/Strat.

The "proc threshold" (if we can call it that, I just can't think of a better term) on Strat is low enough that the DoT factor you mentioned doesn't matter. Plus if it's not that DoT hitting it, it's something else. I forget which thread it was in but a while ago I demonstrated that hit-rate / crit-rate beyond a set (quite low) threshold didn't actually result in an increase in Strat's damage contribution (eg. a power with twice the hit/crit rate of another power got the exact same damage boost from Strat as the slower power).

It's designed logically that way in that common sense tells us it couldn't be balanced otherwise because some DoT heavy powers would get double the damage from it. All that really matters is the number of targets we're hitting. Iunno what mechanisms the devs put in to ensure it behaves that way but it's a very consistent and well programmed artifact.

Note - One correction: The AoE DoT on Solar Amp was never splitting and this has already been corrected in the latest test hotfix.

Why is that considered a justifiable or desirable outcome though? I've seen the "it's an ST artifact" sentiment a few times in here but I've yet to see anyone attempt to articulate why they think, if that were true, changing it's 200 version to that is a good idea. Almost every other lvl 200 DPS artifact is useful for both AoE and ST:

Cog of Mageddon - Same value for both ST and AoE
Dead King's Scepter - Same tac swap value for both ST and AoE
Eye of Gemini - Usable in ST or AoE but not BiS for either
Gem of Horus - My experience with this is low but I thought this was pretty much entirely ST with a lackluster AoE option.
Grimorium Verum - Power-dependent BiS pick for both ST and AoE
La-Mort Card - Special case. Not currently mainline competitive for ST or AoE and predominately benefits Rage melee outside of the previously discussed situational group benefits, but still AoE rotation viable for Rage or HL AoE. One of the least marketable artifacts.
Legionnaire's Sparring AI - Same value for both ST and AoE
Lernaea's Amulet - Potential BiS for both ST and AoE (but also a special case in that it can be annoying to use to use and situational for either)
Scrap of the Soul Cloak - Same value for both ST and AoE
Solar Amplifier - Currenly ST BiS and AoE viable (not AoE BiS). At least one power actually requires it to have access to any competitive ranged AoE rotation due to power-specific rotation flow issues.
Tetrahedron of Urgrund - BiS for one person in a group to have on and same value for ST and AoE
Philosopher's Stone - Same value for ST or AoE.
Source Shard - Special case in that this artifact is extremely situational but buffs AoE capable pets just the same as it does in ST situations.
The Strategist Card - Post-buff, definitive BiS for for ST and AoE, Prec or Might
The Transformation Card - BiS for both ST and AoE, Prec or Might
Venom Wrist Dispenser - Same value in ST or AoE

So of these 19 DPS and quasi-DPS artifacts, only 4 were released, or 200 uppgraded, not being almost equally valuable in ST and AoE situations, The Strategist Card being the 4th. Strat was released predominately benefitting AoE usage on Might and was just recently buffed to make it one of the best overall picks for both ST and AoE, Prec or Might.

Someone might say: "What's the relevance of that? This shows that there is a precedent for ST-specific artifacts because 3 already exist."

The answer: The lvl 200 versions of those artifacts were released that way and never changed or, as with Strat, were later buffed specifically to ensure their performance was good for both ST and AoE. Anybody who bought La-Mort Card, Source Shard, or (I think) Gem of Horus knew exactly what they were buying, ie an extremely niche artifact they'll either almost never use outside of its specific niche or with which they would badly underperform outside of those niches (if I'm wrong about Talon and it actually is relevant to AoE please tell me but just derping around with it on test it certainly doesn't look very useful for AoE at a glance and the fact it can AoE at all looks like a major drawback).

Then someone might say: "So what? If that's how Solar Amplifier was supposed to be, shouldn't it be that way even after all this time?"

The answer: Only if a company doesn't respect its customers or their time, trust, and money. A might player could buy Solar + Trans + Strat and have the best possible ST artifact setup while still having a competitively viable and balanced AoE artifact setup (but not the best possible AoE setup). Solar's grip on AoE "competitiveness" is already tenuous in its current form, so if the nerf goes through it just kills it as a balanced AoE artifact option, meaning some Might players then have to invest in an additional artifact if they hope to continue to have competitively balanced AoE performance despite the fact those other options are already better than the ones provided by Solar Amplifier in almost every case.

All the other artifacts we most commonly use are two-for-one deals: Strat, Trans, Grim, Lernaea's, and Tetra can all go equally well into BiS ST builds and BiS AoE builds. The current iteration of Solar goes best in ST builds but can go into AoE builds without doing horribly in content. Nerfing it so it's only useful in ST builds after the level 200 upgrade was sold to players in a state in which it was useful in ST and AoE builds cuts their investment in half. Whether or not it's the actual intent, the nerf action basically says, "we got our money, **** you, give us more to fill the play gap we just created" because it leaves some players in the lurch for 1/3rd of their AoE artis. I don't think that's what the goal is here, but I would be lying if I didn't admit that that's what the optics of it are.

Also, and I think this is a big deal personally, their goal is to avoid power creep and to avoid making artifacts that devalue other artifacts or remove existing playstyles. This is explicitly devaluing an existing artifact directly, not even through the introduction of a better artifact, so it flies in the face of their design philosophy while removing dozens of balanced rotations.

Note: I already have every single remotely "DPS" artifact at level 200 and I've actually learned from the evaluatuons carried out herein that I could already be doing a lot better without using Solar's current form for AoE than I initially thought, and I will be changing my AoE artis no matter what. I'm sure lots of people think I'm biased in this but this change will have exactly zero effect on me one way or the other and I only care because it's: 1. screwing customers, 2. Not justifiable by the science, 3. Making the game less healthy by removing a ton of balanced ranged AoE rotations from the it and limiting player choice... making the game more restrictive and less fun, diverse, and dynamic.

After we've shown everything we have in this thread, my question becomes: "What are the consequences of this nerf?"

Answer:

1. As mentioned, the loss of ~20+ balanced ranged AoE options (about a third of all competitive ranged AoE options) across all powers, limiting player choice and play variation (the things that actually make this the kind of game people enjoy and want to spend money on).

2. The loss of those ranged AoE options, in turn, results in at least one power being obligated to go full melee + Superspeed to stay AoE competitive, no longer having access to a competitive ranged AoE rotation due to its feast or famine AoE nature and very unique rotational flow requirements which only Heat Vision satisfied.

3. Creates a balance gap in which The Strategist Card has a wide advantage other other artifacts after setting a precedent that artifacts that were previously considered balanced might be changed on a whim... during a time where we are rolling from one nerf to another back to back to back to back to the extend that it's starting to feel like it would be more productive to just rip the bandaid off and time travel back for the devs to start from scratch.

4. Loss of trust: After having the value of one's investment cut in half, it is natural for one to be less confident in their future investments. Eg. Even if this gets reversed, I'm gonna be thinking twice about spending money from now on and that's coming from a player who traditionally upgraded everything with confidence. Artifacts are a big investment.

5. This goes with point 4 but one thing I don't think many people realize, or at least its something I didn't realize until very recently, is that despite being an international game this does not have appropriate regional pricing. It is a real challenge for people in some countries to earn their artis. In the best case scenario, artis are expensive... but for a player in say... Turkey, for example... they have to work their *** off to level artifacts which they knew were balanced, they knew they were competitive, and they knew they were the best-value for their (relative to the game costs) limited resources only to have the rug pulled out from under them. it's a big ******* deal and one which no one, neither devs nor players, should be taken lightly. This isn't some silly zero sum game where one's "team" winning a debate about how well an underperforming artifact does vs hallway trash matters more than that... this represents a lot to certain previously extremely loyal players who already put up with more crap than anyone just to play the game.


The biggest gameplay specific problem there, to me, is the killing off of about a third of all ranged AoE options. That's a lot of gameplay flushed down the toilet in a game where we do the exact same things over and over and over and over and the actual fun part is being able to play in a manner we enjoy (especially after we had to pay to play that way). It's a big step backwards and the exact opposite of what the artifact system was meant to do. Compare this to EoG. EoG was definitively broken in that the entire game centered around it and it obviously had to be fixed. It pissed people off when they fixed it but there was no defending the imbalance that artifact created. This is just killing something because some people didn't like that it was a thing and seemingly thought it was doing more than it actually was (despite the fact that the vast majority of players aren't and weren't using this for AoE to begin).

I still have to demonstrate how the average DPS works for non-split sources and why that's relevant to the discussion but everything mentioned here is honestly much more important in terms of what's actually at stake.

Dear AVTV,

I can only say this:

the inclusion of Amplified Heat Vision for competitive AOE might builds across many multiple powersets does not bode well for the longevity and diversity of options for players to play this game.

Why?

Because we now have a very strong reason for having the Devs do a balance pass by buffing individual powers in their respective powersets so that each powerset can compete competitively in AOE might dps on its own merits

We are now using Amplified Heat Vision as a band-aid fix, to substitute in each might powerset's AOE rotation, which is MASKING the INHERENT DEFICIENCIES which the individual powersets are having in the AOE might dps option.

Don't you see that iconic powers are replacing might builds in more and more powersets? Showing the inherent deficiencies in each powerset?

Wouldn't you want each powerset to stand on its own merits, capable of doing ST and AOE might dps playstyles WITHOUT RESORTING TO ICONIC POWERS to be competitive?

This actually robs the game of diverse gameplay options for players.

This IS BAD FOR THE GAME's "PLAY THE GAME YOUR WAY" motto.

That's all I have.

Also to put this matter to rest once and for all, perhaps Batuba himself can clarify what the original intent of Rank 200 Solar Amplifier was?

Was it intended to have a massive explosion apply non-split damage to its targets?

Was it intended to deal significant AOE damage to multiple targets?

That's not true at all though, as we've already shown. Every power we looked at already has non-Solar Amplifier ranged rotations that beat Solar Amplifier ranged rotations. Every power we looked at also already has non-Solar Amplifier melee rotations that beat Solar Amplifier rotations. I feel like that's been covered to death at this point. It's not "Solar Amplifier or nothing" it's "hey, if you want you can do a melee build, or mebbe a few different builds with just buff artis, or you can do a HV build if you like HV," and those options are currently all totally fine competitive choices.

No one needs Solar Amplifier to be competitive in their power right now and we are, in fact, doing slightly less DPS with it than if we use non-Solar Amplifier builds (especially in the initial 10s burst DPS category that matters most for trash score). We've identified a case where Electricity looks like it loses its only ranged option, however, meaning that while it still doesn't need Solar Amp to be competitive it does lose much of its capacity to bring its ranged powers to bear. That's less choice for Elec. The simple fix for that isn't to strip 33% of all viable ranged AoE rotations from the game (including from the one power we identified that might end up lacking competitive ranged options), it's to give that specific power more options.

We also discussed this one-on-one when you said you were under the impression it was needed because of the guide but I pointed out it was just a standardized option and that there were better options but that the guide wasn't exhaustive (which the guide also has said). I thought you understood after that that what you're arguing for here is already the case. Where is this idea coming from that anyone needs Heat Vision or Solar Amplifier for their power to be AoE competitive? I'm one of the only people who I've ever seen use it for ranged trash clear AoE in raids and even my leaguemates who have tried it quickly stopped because it doesn't do as much damage as alternatives.

Just to be unequivocally clear on this:

1. No one, now or ever, has required Solar Amplifier in order for their power to be AoE competitive.
2. AoE rotations using Solar Amplifier are slightly weaker than the non-Solar Amplifier options available to any power.
3. The only thing the current version of Solar Amplifier does for AoE is add ~20+ additional AoE rotations to the game that did not previously exist. Everyone is having their options slashed if this gets pushed through. Every powerset does already stand on its own merits and every powerset has fewer options if this happens.

If they are concerned about a specific power, the solution is to look at and buff that power, not to strip ~33% of all ranged AoE options away from every power.

The original intent doesn't change the issues brought up in the post you quoted though. That's the problem. They created a thing that was so balanced it expanded ranged AoE options by 33% for the entire game and now those options would be removed while stripping much of the artifacts value.

Solar did not replace AoE options, it added AoE options. They should not want to remove those options when they're only, at best, on par with the options that will remain. Whether or not that was an accident, the game is in a much better place now than it was before that happened. Most powers will end up having ~1-2 ranged AoE options with very little flexibility where they currently have 2-3 or more.

Players aren't just losing their ability to competively use an artifact for AoE, they're also losing a huge chunk of their AoE options. This is very impactful nerf. It's not like killing EoG or VWD or any other artifact they've ever touched because none of those artifacts expanded our access to rotations. There's no way to spin this that has losing ~33% of our ranged AoE options as players being a good thing.

The short answer is gonna be no. It was never intended to do that nor was it intended for you to be able to be mobile during heat vision which was also a issue initially but they caught onto it quick where as this issue has taken a year.

If Batuba or whoever created the artifact wants it to play a certain way that they envisioned then it should play that way. Whether they want to Alter that vision and happen to favor it’s current performance on live is completely up to the devs. That does not seem to be the case though or we wouldn’t be at this point right now.

This isn't the first artifact they did it to. Venom Wrist was far more nerfed with a percentage and description change for precision players. I believe there is more outcry for the solar artifact because majority of the players are might based? This is not me condoning the "nerf". It's nice that the dev.s have replied to fix issues and hopefully resolve those issues and have a better description.

We still need a clarification and description for the empowered channeling mod at rank 200. Is it for heat vision only? Or does it allow for the powers that are no longer interrupted by having the hand mod take effect with the solar artifact? If having the artifact at 200 allows freeze breath, your 35%, etc. to be no longer interrupted, that would be more of a bonus because a player doesn't have to have the empowered channeling hand mod and can have max damage. So essentially you have the benefit of having 2 hand mods. Some powers would benefit more from that, but it's like that for every power and artifact mostly.

I surely hope, that they leave Transformation and Strategist Card artifacts alone. They are currently the most versatile being that they can be used on both roles healer or troll and dps (might & precision) and it's acceptable because level 200 for 5 or 6 different artifacts is alot for one toon. And multiple toons make it very hard. I like the duel role artifacts. And dev. Batuba responded no issues with Strat and Trans. So hopefully those stay unchanged from now on. Because a lot of players are heavily invested in those now.

Depends on how bad the recall is. That has been done before based on severity and depends on the company stance and portrayal of their image. Sometimes is based on the dealership level and not a return is done, but trade ins are very often. Normally, the correction of mistakes lead to make more money. So the person trades in their $20,000 valued vehicle and upgrades to $40,000. Those types of things are just business.

When Samsung S7s or the note 7s phones were found to have blowing up batteries, direct trades or upgrades were made. The phones were banned on planes and you were supposed to trade those phones back in because of the danger.

So a double nth metal week would be a good way to make all customers happy. And the company would benefit from people buying detectors and nth metal from the marketplace. So it can be resolved with positives.

If a significant change is made to an artifact that decreases it's usefulness when it was very useful. There should be an exchange option at least offered.

Whatever abilities are listed in the Mod are the same as the Rank 200. The Rank just automatically gives you the Mod freeing you to Mod something else in your Hand.

If there is an Ability on that List while having Rank 200 or the Mod itself equipped that is still getting Interrupted, make sure to Create a Bug Post in the Arkham Asylum section. Also note that the Mod protects you from Interrupts like lunges, not Hard CCs like Knockbacks and knock ups.

It is supposed to (and does) protect against hard CCs like those. The only standard control effects it falls to work on are Grounding and derp-physics (eg. Boulder gently caresses our thigh, moving us a pixel). Likely be pretty hard with this engine to fix the latter but the former should be addressed. The only things it's not supposed to protect against are the hard mechanical CCs in boss fights and comparable special cases.

Solar Artifact builds right now are competitive. That is why so many people use it. No one is pigeonholed into using it. We used ice power as an example. I will consistently beat another ice player that has Heat Vision on their loadout. With a good combination of certain artifacts there is a way to do it. I refuse to use HV or neo venom on munitions and you can be competitive without it. HV works well with Fire, gadgets and mental with the PI power interactions. Hardlight better/competive without heat vision. Water I use heat vision, because water just seems to be meh, ok no matter what, it's just melted ice...LOL! So there are competitive loadouts without HV.

The description doesn't say that empowered channeling is Not just for Heat vision only. It can be interpreted that it's for heat vision only. It's better if it works as the full hand mod. But should be described as so. I know many people have misunderstood this.

Batuba already responded to this thread about an issue that others have mentioned with empowered channeling at 200, see pages 2-5.

Then its a misinterpretation on the player. For sure it could be worded differently I guess but it says Installs the Mod which means it isnt Heat Vision specific, its just a copy of the Mod.

It might be but I still see those same CC moves done to me wearing the mod. I'll certainly report it later on but it doesnt stop the hard CC like those moves. Just only "interrupts".

^ This. Empowered channeling only stops the little "nudges" that can interrupt you, it does nothing for the CC and hard interrupts that bosses and some trash mobs give out. With a good tank in your group, or even soloing current dailies for the most part, you don't really even need it. Now that even trash mobs can hit you with a hard interrupt it is becoming much less useful. So I have found very little need for it at high CR, but it is a must have at lower CR where you are still running old content.
It is for all channels, not just heat vision, but unless you are a channeling class like munitions, or use a channeling weapon like one of the hand blaster moves, you aren't going to see any benefit from it outside of heat vision. I suspect this is why so many think it is heat vision specific. IIRC it does nothing to prevent interrupts on things like chaining hard light or celestial combos, etc. either.