Trailblazing Guide to Fire

Stupid phone double posting

Yh, me too, and I’m not seeing it. I’ve also healed both in the new raids and seeing it even less. Unless someone like LT re-crunches the numbers, or I do that myself (isn’t going to happen, I don’t have the patience) excuse me while I take my own experiences over others. I need mathematical evidence, not anecdotal that contradicts my own.

Thats cool man. I'd trust my exp over anothers as well. But if im remembering correctly LTs tank guide basically detailed how well each tank survived against a specific boss using a specific tank buster attack. I'm a big fan of LTs work and a lot of info can be gleaned from it. But one specific instances tank buster isnt the end all be all of which tank is superior.

You can just glance at the multiple threads in the powers section and find long time atomic players complaining they cant stay alive. I just finished tanking the new raids with fire while missing 2 pieces of tank gear, with no cybernetic augments and no tanking artifacts bc I main dps. We didnt wipe once.

To each his own. In my experience with atomic tanking its a constant struggle to stay alive while getting knocked out of my combos. That wasnt the case tonight on fire.

I don't have math at this point, but I still tank a bit, and I seem to get crowd controlled all the time. When burnout is on cool down fire has back draft, immolation and a couple of other abilities. Atomic now seems to need multiple break outs because missing just a couple of combos due to CC is miserable.

Blocking is no longer as safe for fire so there's less of a desperation to always counter and get back into block.

Exactly and outside of their breakout only density is usable while being controlled. Breakout/density on cooldown plus missing a combo or two equals death. Fire has 4 moves usable while being controlled plus a 50% health increase pkus the same 50% defense buff atomic gets while attacking a burning enemy. All thats makes it seem pretty evident. Stack it with my actual playing experiences with both and I'd say fire is the clear winner.

If I can tank the new raids at cr 242, with 2 pieces of dps gear, no cybernetic augments, no tank artifacts, no resto or dom generator mods and lower level dom augments then fire isnt a super squishy tank.

LOL. I tank new raids too. You can tank pretty much any number of adds in non-elite content without a problem. You can survive just spamming stoke, backdraft, immolation and block. You must be actively tanking 2 or 3 adds at the time in current content mate because in order to get your passive to up to 50% you need like 999x hits on your combo meter. 6 adds will be be evaporating 70-90k of your 120k health pool in a matter of seconds. I will be surprised if you get more than 10 hits while not blocking tbh to get your passive going which will still result in your death, unless you are running with 2 heals on adds, then maybe. The biggest problem with fire is that YOU HAVE to block to survive and when you block, your heals become boo-boo. It’s like saying “I just won a jackpot of 50 mils just to find out there’s a 50 mil fine for claiming them. You have to block, especially 1 shots. Adds aren’t a problem, you have no mitigation of damage when fighting bosses in elite content. You have to use a hard light or deflect in order to survive and do the mechanics and counter. Even in regular, you get distracted for 2 seconds pulling the adds in the machine and get shot with the laser it’s a 1 shot. Whereas an ice tank would just be standing there with its 19 shields down.

Immolation is a great shield thats usable while controlled. I do run hardlight shield. Burning determination and stoke flames heal while blocking. Fire doesnt lose heals while blocking where as atomic only heals while comboing. I dont have to block in hive on adds only on hivemaster. I have 6-8 adds on me and I jusy staff combo with a solo electric healer. I dont have health generator mods, I dont have cybernetic tanking augments, My dom augments are only lvl 193 and I dont have tanking artifacts and I only have 190 sps. Oh and I have 2 pieces of dps gear. I mainly dps. I wouldn't be able to tank these bew raids with that set up if things were as bad as they are made out to be by many.

I run engulf, burning determination, stoke flames, back draft, immolation, hard light shield. I clip my self heals together and clip weapon attacks with back draft. I use my shields to get me by til I can clip my self heals again. I active tank and block on bosses. Perhaps I have an elite electric healer in my group. But I dont see the damage spikes most mention even with my subpar gear/augments/artifacts/sps.

Gotcha. It’s 2 different animals we’re talking about. I’m at cr 246 and I could easily pull the whole room of adds in SI without a healer because you can dodge some damage running around with your heals up. A lot of weaker adds are actually easier than 3-4 fat ones in the elite. I get it, fire is good but not in late content or elite because you can’t heal adds that punch you for 10-15k. Backdraft and stoke can only do so much for you there, you must block that because if you don’t your health bar will evaporate in an instant. Think of it this way, you are pushing adds for 20 MPH but they push you back for 60 MPH,. Your heals are simply not strong enough to help you overcome this. Especially, burning determination, it only activates when you are attacked. You can’t really use it on adds that hit you so hard. Trust me, I thought fire was op but it’s not. I like it regardless howeber because I like being different. Plus fire tanking helps you read the mechanics and counter. You should always pull adds, backdraft, hit stoke and block. Forget about comboing, because it later content, one fall on your back and you are on your butt, you are done unless you have. immolation active during that time which, even then may not save you. Fire tank loses -50% heaing received while blocking and you need to block the elite content or stronger adds. If I tried this in hive or the machine without blocking I’d be swarmed by the adds and dead in 4 seconds. If you do decide to activdly tank later un the contrnt and in raids, your healer better be healing you 50k a pop and never run out of power. Immolation isn’t a very strong shield either so don’t rely on it yoo heavily because it will break before either your stoke or bd are off cooldown.

I just said I was doing this in hive last night though man. Now I haven't tried elite and don't doubt fire struggles in elite. My original post was that fire isn't in as bad a spot as atomic who can't block because they only heal by comboing.

So it’s a CC issue and not an actual survivability issue? If so, why is it seemingly a new complaint all of a sudden.

Is it the supposed ‘fix’ to defence and atomic tanks coming back after that seeing an issue amd blaming this DLC?

Is there excessive CC in the new content that some tanks haven’t adapted to yet? I haven’t seen that either across all my characters.

I’ve seen the ‘multiple’ threads and still not buying it.

The last thing I did last night was log in and troll Machine for a fire tank. He immediately asked for another healer because he was fire, the healer agreed. The group laughed, I ignored him and filled the group with DPS. His health was up and down like a yo-yo but we got through no problem. He thanked the healer at the end. I log my healer to do the same raid, low and behold, an aromic tank, got through it just as smoothly, it felt like I was healing an Ice or earth tank *shrugs*

I’m still not seeing it. Not a single mention of anything negative towards atomic in game since the DLC dropped either.

Is it fires clutch survivability when it has all powers off cooldown? Thats a bit specific and not a fair comparison. Good luck in the newly buffed elites. It was bad before, it might just be impossible for a fire tank now. Can burst heal when your dead...

I just switched my main to Ice. For the first time in 7.5 years, I don’t have a fire tank. I’m not a power switcher outside of new powers being released and switching my alts to powers I would have otherwise chosen for them at the start, yet I felt that strongly about how fire has been left in such a poor condition post revamp, I actually, after some resistance, switched my main. That’s a pretty damning indictment from one players perspective. All is good on my ataomic tank.

It is in a pretty bad spot because there’s no damage mitigation, if you don’t have “fire soul” active and not getting your 50% defense, which has proven to be impossible in semi-hard content-you are dead. Now, you say “immolation” is usable while controlled, sure it is but its base multiplier is so weak that evem with 15k of dominance it will not save you if you are swarmed by the adds or get hit for 50-60k. If I’m not mistaken immolation has multiplier of 1.52x(correct me if I’m wrong whoever did the math.)
So if your base multiplier is 1.52 then you prevent damage as follows:
1.52x112.5x(resto=10k)+150%(dom=10k)=32.100 damage mitigated, which is nothing if you are swarmed or got hit for 50k, you will most likely be dead. How long do you think it will take for the adds that hit for 7-8k to break that if you sre not blocking? the answrr is 3-4 seconds.Now, you can say something like “oh, just put the hard light shield” sure... Hard light is actually decent because its base multiplier is much higher than immolation’s 1.52x, hard light has around 2.00 or a bit higher than that so you prevent around 45k+ of damage. It’s better than immolation but it does not “burn” enemies and not “usable while controlled.” You have to run with 2 shields and make sure yo hit stoke in order to get your passive going.

Now, the whole augment system really doesn’t benefit fire as much as it helps let’s say for example an ice tank who specs into dom and restoration and ends up not specing 30 skill points into healing. An ice tank can have 12k of resto and over 15k of dom and it has very strong shield multipliers, one of them has around 2.5x and others are around 2.00x so when you plug in the numbers it’s 2.5x13500(resto)=33.750+150%(dom=15k)=60k mitigation. Keep in mind that “ice” also gets a defense buff of 80 something% (not sure) in addition to fortified assault and has 7-8 shields in the loadout.
Atomic is fine because shields are op and “dominance” is the primary stat for atomic, plus atomic has its supercharge that will prevent all damage. In short, its just a better version of fire because you don’t have to block, just make sure you don’t fall on your *** and use a breakout trinket and you are fine. Obviously, block the man bats in elite but outside of that atomic is pretty op. Fire on the other hand will be left helpless once you fall on your butt because you don’t have a spot in the loadout for burn out since you need your hard light. Heals are too weak, once you are knocked out as fire and don’t have immolation you are probably done even with stoke+bd combo because you need to BLOCK to prevent your health bar from being evaporates and when you DO BLOCK, your heals from stoke and bd are reduced by 50%. Now, I’m not saying “buff fire” because I personally manage to make it work by learning to block and counter different adds and never put myself in a situation where I’m knocked down on my *** because it will be a wipe. Would be nice however if fire got 25% damage absorption added into its “fire soul” just like atomic or didn’t lose 50% of healing while blocking but hey, devs already burnt fire and I don’t expect them to buff it. The only saving grace for fire is the scorching aura, the new soder artifact-which you will be poppoing quite often to be honest and personal dumpening fields which will buy you a second or 2 to do your backdraft and go into blocking, rest is up to the healer, who should happen to be water lol

This is where forum math vs actual playtime come into play. Theres no way immolation only mitigates 30k damage. And its mitigates more damage in my experience than hard light shield does. Nothing you are saying matches up with my actual playtime on both fire and atomic. The hyperbole is just over the top. I'm not gonna die in 3-4 seconds when swarmed by adds. I'm not even gonna have to block. Immolation by itself lasts that long. I know bc I tank with fire everyday. Out of curiousity when is the last time you did?

When I tanked hive I blocked during the boss fights but not as often as I thought I'd have to and when I tanked machine I only blocked on hive master not on the add phases.

Woah. Easy... I’ve played fire pre revamp and have been playing it as my main for over a year. Go run ahead of your group in machine raid and pull 5-6 adds in the hallway then pop immolation without blocking and see how long it woll last. Then come back here and write “you was right” because I always am.

Speak for yourself, I fire tanked hive E up to second boss several times. I really enjoy fire tanking. If the devs decide to buff fire, it will become FOTM for tank role. I seriously stress that ppl learn the power and try different specs. Also fire tanks are not supposed to block outside of skull attacks and counters. Immolation is a decent shield that is needed. I cant speak for everyone but I say it in a decent spot. Definitely not as bad As ppl make it out to be. I also have the skill points to make fire tank look good tho lol

Man I just said that I tanked machine the other night. I'm not trying to be hostile but by completely ignoring the fact that I've said multiple times that I am poorly specced for tank right now and that I have very recently done what you just told me to do with no difficulty you are basically calling me a liar. I stand by the door and pull all the adds in machine then hit both my heals. I use immolation then hard light shield to get my heals off cd then I clip both heals again. I dont block except for on hive master and often I dont need hard light shield bc immolation lasts until my heals are back. Been considering using eternal flame instead bc I rarely use hls. And theres not a hallway in machine. Did you mean hive?

Some good recent posts discussing Fire tanking credentials in comparison to other powers.

I just want to back up what I think AnonymousEUPS was trying to point out, and that is anecdotal evidence in comparing tank powers is not really useful. I think a far more useful exercise in comparing tank powers practically is to actually switch powers and compare the power sets in the same gaming circumstances. In my mind it’s pointless saying things like Fire is ok because “I got to X stage of content” or “I completed Y raid with less than optimum statistics” or “I have XXX skill points, and therefore I make it work”. Your not affectively comparing the powersets.

Fire is much weaker than the other tank powersets in my opinion. This can be backed up by the work LT done. It’s clear evidence.

As for anecdotal evidence, I have my own. I’ve switched tank powers before at a last boss of the then current elite content. It could be wholly situational but some of the tank powersets are like chalk and cheese in how they cope under the toughest of pressures.

You missed the part about where I have an atomic tank and directly compared my experiences tanking the same content on both. And apparently the part where LT himself came in and said atomic is struggling right now.

Listen guys I have both, I've tried both in the same content. Ive tried one on bounties and raids switched toons and tried the same thing on fire. Call it anecdotal, I call it a direct comparision. My fire toon always survived better due to exactly what LT said above, atomic gets interrupted and juggled and then dies bc it only heals through combos.

People mention fire loses heals when blocking. More accurately fire loses its buff to incoming heals which correct me if I'm wrong LT but that has nothing to do with self heals. Even if it does its not like fire goes to 50% incoming heals it just goes back to 100% from 150%. Making blocking a viable option on top of self heals on top of shields. Atomic just has combos.

But I'm done arguing this fact. This is the fire guide and its turned into over a page of arguing. To each his own. Fire has been more reliable for me and I play both regularly.

See the thing is.... A lot of ppl play powers wrong. Learn the power. I haven't been fire for too long maybe a lil over a month. But I have tested myself. Fire is not as bad as ppl make it seem. To me, it's a good power. But I say this... a fire tank is only as good as the healer in the raid. Alerts I don't need heal.

I’d love to see you tank Elite content without blocking. Maybe you ran with a healer or two but I call shinanegans on that because your defense buff doesn’t add much to defense. I never said fire is bad, it’s just weak because you can’t absorb damage directly nor can you control your health bar under pressure while actuvely pulling the adds away and clumping them together. It’s just too much for fire without blocking. I won’t believe it till I see that.

Fire isn’t bad at all but heals are weak. Bounties or single bosses aren’t hard with fire, on the contrary, it’s rather easy if you read the mechanics and counter. Fire struggles with DoT damage m, if there’re too many adds, in GCZE for example on the last boss when the adds come out for example this could be a struggle without blocking. Whereas if you tried pano E it’s much easier since you have single bosses. There’s no way a fire tank can sustain the incoming damage while actively tanking Elite hive while pulling both sides of adds without blocking. Sure you can clip heals and use both of your shields but if you were to go that route adds will just be all over since you will just br running away while your group mates are getting piunded.

Never said I've tanked elite. I've mentioned how my tank is specced. That'd be stupid. What I have tanked is easier on my fire toon than on my atomic toon. Lets agree to disagree and move along.