Bring weapons back to DCUO!!

Imagine, though, for a second, if you couldn't move while performing your pftt attacks. You were froze in one spot. To move, you would have to stop attacking for a moment.

PftT does have a way easier time attacking. Are you seriously doubting this?

Boss blocks...who cares? Boss moves, lunge and clip power instantly, so you lose what 0.5 seconds? Many powers can be used while moving at the same time, so no damage loss there either.

Basically, my response to those who say that both pftt and hybrid/WE should be identical in damage output would be to say, fine, you keep talking about ignoring game mechanics, well then return them to PftT too. Make certain powers vulnerable to block as well. Force pftt to be immobile while casting again. Cool?

Now, I'm also not saying buff them til there's no tomorrow, but seriously, every aspect of weapon counters result in a damage loss, even block breaking (how much damage do you get from ranged hold again?). Maybe they should just provide a white mod for weapon users that would grant you immunity to block every 45 seconds or something. Between that and a breakout trinket weapon users could just pop immunity when they see the boss blocking.

Or what if trolls had the ability to grant immunity to counter with one of their debuffs (like the damage reduction one)?

Pros: Trolls are needed (chuckle), making them happy. They have another reason to use debuffs, wheeeee.

Weapon players are happy because they can join in the fight like the rest of the group.


Cons: Weapon users don't like having to depend on a troll to do his job properly.

The cooldown needs to be longer than a single debuff probably, coupled with trinket should cover the bases and allow for some skill.

Or we can just simply go back to the point of hybrid doing potentially more damage than PftT. No need to over complicate things.

Also, lets not try to twist this thread into something else. Its not about making weps the next over the top imbalance, its about making them meaningful again.

Caught up reading from a couple of pages, and some of y'all sure are trying.

After careful consideration, I've decided that my first suggestion is the best (of my suggestions). I also realize that some might not agree, and that's fine. All in all, I feel like we're just giving the devs food for thought, so a wide variety of options, ideas and possibilities is useful to them anyway.

Proposal: Make countering dependent on dom checks, just like CC effects currently are.

Effects: If a player has less than the required amount of dom, he cannot block break NPCs or bosses or lunge to interrupt. Conversely, attacks on blocking NPCs/bosses in this content would not trigger counter effects either. In other words, the player would not affect them, nor would they affect the player. NPCs and bosses would still be able to stun or interrupt players, however, as they do all players.

Pros:
1. Weapon players in raid content would not need to worry about losing damage from a boss blocking for extended periods of time. They would need to follow raid mechanics, move, etc. but could damage NPCs as all players do.
2. (from Tank point of view) No more would tanks fail mechanics because one of the dps granted the boss interrupt immunity (SM cyborg anyone?). Tanking would be more fun, being able to engage in countering and dominating the boss.
3. (from troll point of view) Trolls would be more useful (by meeting dom requirement) in content with a solo tank, since they would be able to help out in interrupting secondary targets, etc.
4. PVP would not be affected whatsoever
5. Solo, duo and some alert content would not be affected whatsoever

Cons:
A. Some dps and healers will complain they can't block break or interrupt raid targets anymore.
B. Some forum posters whose names sound similar to Roxie Ishtar will insist that this trivializes base mechanics.
C. It might be so ingrained in the base code that this change to mechanics is not technically feasable.

Personally, I feel that the pros far outweigh the cons. Especially in this game, where a lot of the pros are a little chubby, and the cons — confined to the prison yard and eating limited rations — don't weigh very much.

In the case of C, the next best option would probably to provide a white mod or artifact that granted weapon users automatic immunity once every minute or so, which, paired with a breakout trinket, would allow for skill and still ensure the ability to reach the big hits at critical moments.

This could work, but it would have to be tied closely to weapon attacks further up the chain. The reason was that this was a big problem with weapons in the revamp. Taps and short combos were doing tons of damage, which lead to players using them to boost pftt even more by tossing in a few constantly.

If players really had to invest in a combo to do awesome damage, then buffing the numbers could potentially be a simple-to-implement fix.

how do you balance it without breaking the system...

I disagree the solution is not too remove counter mechanics, that's just lazy and sorry even more silly than saying "buff the damage to the point where you can ignore them anyway" in fact it's the same damn thing.

The solution is definitely finding a way to make weapons players play the weapons the way they should be played and play the combat mechanics the way they should be played.

Forget PFtT for a moment, forget whether they are or aren't being interrupted. look at their bottom line, how much damage are they doing on average within an instance... What we then need to look at is a way that increases weapon damage output to match that while not watering this game down even further than it already is.

People already complain that it's too casual, yet you're wanting to remove the combat mechanics... come on man... no no, back to the drawing board that isn't the answer.

Ok actually let's explore that, that has potential in my view.

What do we want the troll to do? stop the boss from getting immunity? stop the boss from countering? grant a WE user immunity to countering effects? what's the best course of action in your view.

and how exactly might it work in your view.

Neither are group counter buffs, having them the same potential, or getting extra counter damage. We already established tanks need counters more then anyone, and having them buff the group when they counter promotes lazy dps just as much as removing counters or buffing damage so you can ignore them.


The issue here is people making mountains out of molehills and act as is a slight damage difference will make weapons the new FoTM or make people not want to counter. There are other benefits to countering besides damage, like starn already mentioned. The boss falling down is probably the biggest benefit for the tank, healer(s), and the DPS directly hitting him, not to mention the rest of the group because that's time that could have been spent tossing AoEs into the group or charging at someone but instead he spent it on his back.


The fact you even have to acknowledge that weapon users have counter mechanics to deal with that PFtT users don't means it's by default more complex and risky then PFtT and should be accommodated accordingly.

You think PFtT users should have their vulnerability to lunge back, ok what does that do? How often does the boss lunge at someone at the group? Only time that happens is if the tank drops aggro, which means you're running with a bad tank. Scripted attacks like charges or jumps don't count as lunge either. So in the end even if we add vulnerability to PFtT to try to "even out the risk" they STILL have to deal with less then weapon users have to.

This whole discussion is dragging out to ridiculous lengths to argue against something that in the end may not even be that remotely game changing... Having hybrid do slightly more damage won't unbalance the game or break anything because in the end you won't successfully land every single counter that gets thrown at you, no matter how good you think you are. The average player will ignore counters no matter how much damage weapons do and the skilled players will not over power PFtT players by the millions, you'll be lucky if it's even by the hundred thousands at that. It seems this whole discussion is just attempts to grasp at the thinnest straws to try to prove a point that may not even be relevant if the change were to even occur.

To use an example, say a PFtT rotation does 17k dps per second on 1 target (not possible yet, just speaking hypothetically), then a melee hybrid rotation using those same powers does 18k dps per second, let's translate that on the scorecard:

after 1 minute that's 1,020,000 for PFtT and 1,080,000 for the hybrid rotation, that's playing a perfect game, no counters or interrupts, just people wailing on the boss for a minute.

After 10 minutes that's 10,200,000 for PFtT, and 10,800,000 for hybrid, a mere difference of 600k. Again, playing a perfect game, no counters or interruptions.

Now let's throw in counters, say the hyrbid dps loses 15% damage due to knockbacks, falling down, and having to stop to re position themselves, the PFtT dps loses 5% to stuns, knockbacks, and the occasional needing to jump out an AoE, the PFtT damage goes down to 9,690,000. Hybrid damage goes down to 9,180,000, lower then PFtT despite having a 1k parsing difference on the dummies.

That's not taking into consideration for PFtT you don't need to stop casting powers to move around, you can jump while casting powers and you can be mobile while flying and still cast powers, so really a skilled player doesn't need to stop attacking to re-postilion themselves with PFtT. You try that with weapons and you break the combo.

Ok so group counter buffs don't work, noted, doesn't mean you scrap combat mechanics.

When that slight amount of damage has a horribly detrimental effect on the combat mechanics within the game... that's not a molehill.

Acknowledged of course it is beneficial to enact the combat mechanics the very reason you want to create a system that rewards players for using it and encourages players to do so, not just obliviously forget the exist because they can or make them not exist entirely.

That depends on the weapon you're choosing to employ and whether you're in melee or ranged position. lets also take bow to smokebomb as an example, I know it's an outlier and extreme but it's quite the quick and powerful combo, probably part of the reason why that is, is because you're pulling it off before the NPC's tend to do a counter. I'm acknowledging the counter mechanic of course, but that doesn't mean there isn't a bit disingenous to make the assertion that PFtT players are just mindless zombies.

Scripted attacks still amount to interruption irrespective of the player type being interrupted, the trouble here too is we're talking about raids, perhaps to get the solution we should be thinking of the impact any change will have on the game all the way down to solo content. You imagine if you trivialize combat mechanics and how mindless your solo's and duos become and even your alerts

Forget lunging Owlman when he's doing his skull attack in IS anymore, who cares just pew pew pew through it, doesn't matter, who cares if Owlman is blocking just pew pew through it, hell just keep swinging that duel wield, you could even chuck a duel wield spin in their for the lol's even if he blocks you the damage you did on the first spin is enough... do you see what I'm getting at and why this isn't a meaningful solution?

If a discussion drags out it's because meaningful discussion has taken place.

You're being a bit disingenuous to express your point, PFtT players can throw some powers while moving, not all of them, they're not being efficient at all in the slightest, thus they're losing damage, PFtT players still have to significantly reposition at times

I get that PFtT has a bit of an advantage in terms of counters and interruptions sure, but you're acting like it's somehow infallible and capable of being done while sleeping walking, that's just not being honest with the reality.

Let's just throw this out there too but if you want to fight with a weapon that you know has mechanics and you decide to lunge the boss should you not be punished if they're blocking? Is your excuse "No I shouldn't be because Joe over there spamming 1 2 3 4 isn't"... I mean is that the answer really?

it all leads me back to the same answer, develop a system that works but rewards playing weapons properly not diminishing them. If we developed a system that did that I'd be all ears too for talking about rewarding that skill with more damage than PFtT.

So do you all remember years ago when they added the very mechanics you are complaining about now? When this game started the NPC's just stood there and took the beating without the counters they have now. Oh they had attacks but not the counters. All the PVP style counters were added in to enhance the game. I think it was sometime around T3 or T4. Now you are all talking about punishing players for using pftt and acting like each play style doesn't have its own set of problems. You are talking about making changes that would do the very thing you all said we would do by adding extra sp to our stats. You are discussing things that would alienate most of the players since most use pftt. Not every power can move around with every attack some are actually rooted while attacking. I get it you are unhappy with Weapons or Hybrid mechanics but guess what. Get more Sp and hybrid gets a lot more viable. You defended the current game pretty hard in the other threads and now some of the suggestions mentioned in this one make adding to the SP cap sound pretty small in comparison. Wow you guys thought we were off base with our idea. Look in the mirror lately? Talk about game changing and starting all over with another revamp. This one is only a few moths old remember.

I'm speaking as someone that has ran end tier content as both a weapon user adn a PFtT player. I tried PanR with DW WM combos, I was ranged on first boss obviously, hard to melee J-quick when he is constantly teleporting, I was up there in damage. Only 100k behind top dps. On adds, I meleed, I trailed behind but gained no significant ground. On owlman I attempted to melee. The amount of times I needed to stop to get behind him because the tank was moving around, I lost a lot of damage, and would have done more if I stayed ranged and spammed flurry shot, and asking the tank to keep still is a rather selfish call considering he was simply dodging fire AoE's and full auto. In the end I barely did 5 mill total damage and was third dps.

As PfTT, my biggest problem I have to face is messing up a combo and accidentally lunging, I can fly and jump around while comboing so I don't need to stop using power to get out of an AoE or reposition. I usually end up with over 7 mill in a PanR run and 11 mill in an elite run (if nothing goes wrong), and from my personal experience you guys are over exaggerating the problems that PfTT has to face and how it impacts your performance. I'm not being disingenuous, I'm speaking as a celestial dps that has done it for years. Compared to melee weapon usage, PFtT is pretty braindead, even with combo powers.

That goes back to my "mistakes happen" and you won't successfully land every counter. Sometimes the boss blocks without warning, and you don't really have time to react fast enough. Sure they should be punished for it, it's part of the mechanics, but only having the same damage potential as the guy in the back not having to worry about any of that? That's purely unjust and unreasonable.

Which is what we have been trying to do, but the way the counter system is built ad the complaints/standards that people have make it very difficult to come up with a solution to satisfy everyone and in the end some toes will have to be stepped on to get weapons as a viable play style again, really all it boils down to.

At this point you're just going to get added to ignore, because you're contributing absolutely nothing meaningful to the discussion except for left over hate and salt that your ridiculous no-limit stat point cap idea was shot down by so many people.

No its not anything like that at all. You see I actually agree that weapons are not on the same level. But what you are are failing to see is that you are doing the very same thing you accused us of doing by wanting to change the game to suit you and your style of play. You all said we wanted something game braking and it would throw away all the hard work of the devs. Now you are doing the same thing but on a larger scale. Thought sine you were a dedicated tester you wouldn't want what you worked so hard for to be thrown away so easily since you are talking about changing the very mechanics of damage for both weapons and super powered. Your changes and adjustment would do way more to change the game then adding a mere 1000 might ever would. You got to defend the game as you see it so now i guess so do I. Ignore all you want to since the large scale changes asked for in this thread don't stand a chance of happening. Yep a complete rework of the game sounds good to me. This time I think I will get me a test server account so maybe I can get more than 30% stats for SP this time around. I may not be able to get my point across as well and some others like Proxy did but sorry you are the one way off base now.

All these weapon using meanies, around lol

I know many will laugh but I actually use pftt because I like pftt - I like just using powers, It is the immersion of the game for me.

i'm also one of those ppl that thinks clipping is silly as i wanna see my powers not just get there damage - I got hate for that way back in the day lol

This is just ridiculous. Fatal and I have wildly varying viewpoints at times, but here we agree. You're definitely going on ignore.

You wanted to change the game to suit your desire for OP-ness. This thread is about encouraging the devs to continue with the revamp balancing process. They always stated that people would have 3 ways to play, PftT, Hybrid and Weapons Expert. At the moment that isn't happening because weapon damage (besides bow-smokebomb) is not correctly balanced. These are simple suggestions (not tantrums like your thread) for the devs to consider and decide how to balance weapons. All I hear when you start to post is...never mind, not worth it.

i just think that giving might to the playstyles should have never been.
precision for hybrid and WE and i guess we would be on the same level:
powers do enough dammage, hybrid would clip and WE focuses on WM's.