Bring weapons back to DCUO!!

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by Fatal Star, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. Proxystar #Perception

    The reason you're being disingenuous is because you're not being entirely honest about difficulties and you're over simplifying it to the point where you're exaggerating the point that PFtT is mindless reptition without any effort.

    Let's take a few other powers

    Water - if you're using a tsunami strike type load out and you get interrupted that means you're stuck repeating tsunami strikes and it takes longer to get high tide back, the more you're interrupted and interruption can happen a lot the more this can start to heavily affect your damage output. To act to like you can just jump around too while doing all of this while still spamming moves is being over exaggerated by you.

    Munitions - if you're doing a lot of the channeled moves you can be interrupted on this and in one rotation multiple times, losing significant amounts of damage, you're also stuck in place a lot more than some other powers. Mini Nuke you're stuck in the spot while it runs out, Small Package, stuck in the spot. Even with Biggun the supercharge can be interrupted and you're waiting 60 seconds to use it again.

    Quantum - The more you move the more your projectiles like singularity can start to do strange things and miss, so it's not like you're jumping around wantonly throwing projectiles without thought. Energy Expulsion is interruptable so if you're running that and you get interrupted you can lose a heap of damage the more you're not able to utilize this.

    Ice - You're stuck in Arctic Gust and you can be interrupted along with Frost Blast if you lose your Frost Blast you can miss out a decent amount of damage.

    Finishing moves - If you're in the air (jumping) you have to wait to land to cast these again, otherwise these cancel, not a biggy and not something new by any means, but is something to consider.

    The harder the content too the more effort has to be put in to ensuring you are positioned correctly and that you're not getting into a situation where you're at threat of dying and that does mean you can and do at times lose reasonable damage.

    It's an exaggeration to put forth this assertion that PFtT is somhow exempt from damage loss, it's simply not true; but it's being portrayed in this thread as borderline impossible to suffer loss due to interruptions or boss and environment mechanics.

    It's also being portrayed as impossible to be interrupted by other combat mechanics, again not true. they are still subject to lunges and their damage is still compromised by blocking etc.

    The only reason a PFtT player doesn't need to do "combat mechanics" in a raid is because it's not their focus from a raid perspective they are somehow relying on the tank to do it for them, for that tank to continue to block break etc. etc.

    But when I suggest a WE player get a bonus when a tank performs a block break on your behalf you somehow see that as absurd...

    Then we take that down to smaller content (alerts, duos, solos etc) you honestly think (and I'll use the caveat) good player even if PFtT sits there mindlessly ignoring combat mechanics, they still have a weapon you know, they can still block break, they can still lunge, they can still block when need be.... and the good ones do.

    But if we remove combat mechanics from the game all of that "challenge" is gone all because instead of wanting to actually challenge yourself to use your weapon correctly you wanted to dumb the game down, remove it all because you perceived PFtT to be doing the same thing, something as pointed out above is arguably disputable especially when you look at the overall fluctuation of content difficulty and size.

    I can't help but feel you don't really want a meaningful solution here that requires you to learn to actually fight your weapon you just want the path of least resistence one where you can button mash and not care and be competitive on the scoreboard.

    This game has had enough of that sort of thing and quite frankly even if we did entertain your idea thta PFtT had an unfair advantage there's that old saying "two wrongs don't make a right" you don't destroy more aspects of the game because the player doesn't want to put some real effort in.
    • Like x 2
  2. ObsidianChill_DCUO Well-Known Player


    Not that I am going to enter this thread or want to engage in a discussion with you specifically I just want to offer that the entirety of the early game we didn't have to worry about combat mechanics of npc's and there was still plenty of difficulty. I couldn't be in a FOS2 and counter the assassins, or interrupt the omacs or interrupt any of the avatar of metas etc. We had to actual use crowd control abilities on both the tanks and controllers when it was actually useful to have fire tanks with low and high pressure combos etc. Just wanted to simply state we have seen plenty of challenge in dcuo without having to worry about specific pvp combat mechanics in pve content, not that we'll be lucky enough to go back to that system.
  3. Proxystar #Perception

    I'm not sure that's how it works when you quote someone or post within a thread, the monent you post you're engaging in discussion... but semantics..

    I understand combat mechanics weren't always in PVE but they've been in the game for longer than they weren't in the game at this point. They were added in very early on, it was before Origin Crisis, I believe it was even before Hand of Fate if I recall correctly without digging through game updates.

    I'm not saying by any means it's a necessity for challenge, but it represents one nonetheless and what we clearly have here is a few members of the player base asking for this aspect to be removed because they can't quite simply grasp the task of participating within a countering system

    And on top of that when you bring up ideas that lead to methods in which it would create a system that encourages them to do so, they'll have no bar of it because what they really want here is a 'nerf' plain and simple.

    They want it handed to them on a platter because they don't want to do anything that requires thought or actual play, they just want all their combos front loaded so that when Zod decides to block they can mindlessly keep smashing their melee key and be OP.

    That is really what this comes down to, plain and simple, not a better game, not a better combat system, a good old "make it easy for me" mode request. (and I'm not talking about you specifically, as you've clearly just 'engaged').
    • Like x 2
  4. ObsidianChill_DCUO Well-Known Player

    k :rolleyes:

    Unfortunately that's exactly how it has played out, the wait and see approach in regards to what you said specifically hasn't worked because each rendition of dcuo adjusting those type of mechanics has been backwards progression. They added pvp counter mechanics to pve fine wasn't any issues on npc's besides some initial adjusting, then they made willpower more apparent on npc's with dom thresholds then they changed almost all npc's to zero willpower so simple dps powers with cc effects perma stun adds, then now they've removed counter mechanics from pftt combo powers. Each step being taken is backwards and catering more to the sliver spoon fed casuals.

    Is taking away vulnerability from weapon combo's in pve is a stupid approach but I can see why they raise the point because of light/atomic/rage/earth, I wouldn't have taken away vulnerability from the pftt powers either but devs took the easy way out approach to balancing. Before talking about vulnerability in regards to weapons I would first address their inability to clip WM combo's or you lose full damage, pre-revamp on test the regular weapon combo's were king compared to WM which was slow and not as rewarding but dev's couldn't have all their hard misplaced work with WM go to waste so they buffed WM combo damage which we can't clip. In regards to the weapon playstyle you accept that you have the risk of being countered just as before any power that was interrupt-able during AM's like gadgets or munitions dps had to worry about when you are practically perma-lungable which why many found mental AM appealing because only mass terror was interruptible.
  5. Proxystar #Perception

    Let's not dwell on the past, let's move forward with the game.

    Yea, I already said I didn't think they should have taken away PFtT combat vulnerabilities, however without removing, trivializing or diminishing combat mechanics your answer to balancing weapons is what exactly? clipping WM combos?
  6. ObsidianChill_DCUO Well-Known Player


    This is what people don't understand, we should be 100% dwelling on the past because in the past it was done right, there wasn't threads weekly on the forums about this sucks and that sucks and this is broken no AM/WM/stats revamp balancing cause there wasn't any need. The only threads were about phase dodge which was a legit concern only being available to the ss movement tree and a few power abilities that weren't working as intended. DCUO's history has everything in it to make great elite content and balance issues but its just everyone wants to forget it or doesn't remember. The eye drones, neruo-omacs, batwing's, assasians, sunstones sentry's etc were some of the best npc interaction we ever had and then they nerfed it all to the ground, the nero omacs don't even stun etc and we get random npc's like the ones from DWF that shoot our raid wiping grenades that spawn under the map and aren't telegraphed. Moving forward = not caring about the game because they don't have anywhere to move forward to. Mepps said they want to focus more on elite content, PanoE was beaten easily day 1 and No Escape elite suffers from the same issues as DWF, and USR when entirely too many mechanics going on at 1 time in 1 small room, its artificial difficulty unlike Prison Break and the Dr Light fight where there are only 2 mechanics and they are enough to make it a difficult fight alone.

    A long way to balancing weapons is to bring back full clipping abilities, we can already do that as PFTT, its just an awkward playstyle right now with really only 2 viable weapon options in bow/smokebomb and dw/explosive shot for range. Its in a situation where bow/smokebomb needs to be brought in line which free's up other options but the issue there is WM is garbage, and always was, let WM die and bring back the way it was on test and before WM with regular weapon combos doing standardized damage. This brings, staff, 1h and MA and 2h back into the fold with their 5 taps. WM is clunky and slow and bringing back normal combos brings back the speed and clip-ability as those combos are already designed for clipping rotations. If they refuse to let WM die then include some small bonus or crit damage etc so the player can choose between long unclipable combos that may do more damage or fast, regular combos you can clip.
  7. Fatal Star 10000 Post Club

    It really is not over exaggeration on my part. I've used channel powers, burst powers, combo powers, all I still found a lot easier then weapon meleeing. I speak from experience. Not to discredit you or anyone else.

    I have a water toon, it works exactly like celestial, you can jump around and move, you can fly while casting tsunami strikes, and it's more forgiving then celestial since each combo input does damage, where as celestial you have a pause. Sorry but i can't agree with this. Plus the fact that tsunami strikes is max ranged, you don't need to be remotely close to pull it off. The clipping window for it is also very short, so you can't really clip it with anything which makes it even more forgiving.

    Munitions I do agree has greater risk then burst powers since it's all channeling, but it's still not as difficult as you make it out to be, certainly not like directly hitting a boss with your weapon.

    You got me here, I'm not a big expert on quantum, but i have ran with many quantum users in PanE and none really had any complaints about it, even on the J-Quick fight, I feel this might be a slight exaggeration on how often projectiles miss on your part.

    Arctic gust works with empowered channeling mod, I used it on my tank and even spammed arctic gust to try to battle tank with a might set up. There's really no risk to it. Frost blast is currently broken. Hitting a power too early after it's casted will leave FB doing 0 damage and break the cooldown of the power you used after it. Cause of that it's not really ideal to have on your loadout, but if it worked properly then I would agree it would take coordination and timing to pull off, still not as much as a weapon user though.

    Finishers can't be jump clipped, I'm aware and agree with that, but their damage is also lacking and if you're using a finisher on your loadout, chances are you aren't being competitive and may end up getting out dpsed by a hybrid user anyway if they were to buff weapons.

    Which is where I bring in elite, do you ever see any rage dps meleeing in elite? There's a reason for it, it's alot more challenging to do then normal content. The fact you can't be up close in elite most of the time because of the risk level clearly outlines the difficulties weapon users face over PFtT players since everything is amplified in elite.

    No one here is saying it is exempt from damage loss, again another reach to prove your point, I'm saying it doesn't suffer as much damage loss that a hybrid user would face, and that's just simple facts, there's no big "AM" type hit. You fall down, get right bac up and conntinue your rotation.

    Also I'm actually surprised you used ice instead of fire since arctic gust is more safe then fireburst, you would have gotten your point across better had you said firebust instead, since the empowered channeling mod doesn't work on it, and you don;t see the damage till the end of the cast.

    Which is the whole point that were trying to make, PFtT users simply do NOT have to deal with the same issues that weapon users do! Thank you for finally catching on. It arguably takes more effort then just standing there spamming powers and I honestly find it laughable you tried to find the smallest situations where a PFtT user would face difficulties forgetting that you're talking to a PFtT user.

    One day I'll make a video showing exactly how easy it is to be mobile without having to stop your rotation.

    Because it hypocritically promotes the same thing you;re rallying against: people ignoring counter mechanics, which is what would happen. How often do you see a PFTT player go in for a block break when the boss is blocking? Very rarely. You see them lunge but in certain scenarios, like on the johnny quick fight, they may help the tank lunge his tornado pull, or Owlmans sonar beam. Other then that, you rarely see a PFtT user trying to counter because they don;t have to worry about it. You make the tank buff the whole group from a counter, the weapon user won't have to worry about it, they'll just say "the tank got this" and not even attempt to counter since it's better for them to finish their combo instead of stopping to attempt a block break that they might not even land screwing them over.

    Which again, rarely happens. You're speaking in the small 3% here, which is also the roughly the same percent of players that would make hybrid work enough to even keep up with a PFtT user if they were to have equal potential, you're trying so hard to act as if PFtT users face all these difficult situations I'm trying not to laugh right now. Even solos or duos, I rarely have to counter, my combos do the stunning and juggling and I just go to town. In small group content your CC works since there's no dom requirement, you can stun an NPC through a block. Alerts I won;t even address since those are meant to be beaten with any set up and it's already unfair for a weapon user since there's no roleless weapon buff.

    I find it ironic you think I want the path of least resistance but trying so hard to defend PFTT like they face all these hardships when in reality they really don't. There's a reason you rarely see a weapon user, which puts us right back to the original post of the thread. Congratulations we just made a full circle and got nowhere.
    • Like x 4
  8. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    I mained fire for years, which is one of the reason's I support the idea of buffing weapons somewhat from experience. Fireburst is tricky and always has been, same with mass det, but the difference is that they can be used while still moving, and are both mid-range and full-range respectively. Dealing with any kind of interruption during boss fights is extremely rare, simple because you skirt around the boss and you're fine.
    • Like x 1
  9. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    Maybe what would help the devs would be some video of recent runs as PftT and also playing weapons. That could help them determine the actual state of all of this. I'd help out but... yeah...prolly shouldn't have uninstalled, lol. Oh, well.
    • Like x 1
  10. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    Many of the powers you listed are included in the empowered channeling mod.

    With others, like munitions, you actually prove the opposite point, because the devs specifically buffed their damage (all channeled moves) taking into account the fact that they are so interruptable.

    So, we only have three options basically:

    1. design some sort of mechanic, trinket, white mod, troll buff or artifact that grants immunity from counter mechanics (even if only temporary). This is kind of fun because with a trinket or something that weapon players could press, it would allow for skill (you know the instance, know a block is probably coming, pop it and then go for the big hit.) However, having to use an artifact just to have access to something that PftT players get for free is cumbersome and not really fair.

    2. take into account added difficulty of dealing with counters and buff weapons accordingly. Obviously only the devs would be able to decide on the proper percentage. I'm for buffing later parts of combos versus single taps and holds, otherwise they would just be a way for pftt to buff their damage even more. WM combos need to be brought in line with smokebomb (well, probably a little less since smokebomb seems to be slightly OP).

    3. change the bonuses supplied by the three focuses, making weapon bonuses stronger than they currently are. This is the trickiest of the three options, but also the easiest to implement. Tricky because players always behave in unexpected ways, twisting the bonuses in ways the devs don't always intend (power back for example, forget about it if it means more damage for me).
    • Like x 1
  11. Proxystar #Perception

    I'm not going to go through each of your posts because quite frankly I don't think at this point they require a rebuttal, this is about weapons after all, I gave you the examples to show you that it's an exaggeration on your part.

    It wasn't by any means an exhaustive list so going through each and every one of my examples is probably arguably futile on your part.

    I mean the irony too of you telling people they can't use a finisher "because they're not being competitive"... so you're telling a PFtT player what powers to use and that's somehow okay but when they tell you what weapons or combos to use or whether you should even use weapons at all, that's not... there's a double standard there you know.

    Again let's put all the PFtT conversation aside, it keeps coming up and it's really just a distraction anyway.

    If you want to increase the damage on weapons, where exactly? Are you going to front load all the damage so it doesn't matter which combos you use? Are you going to immensely buff all the range combos?, buff all the short WM combos?

    I'm not here to defend PFtT by the way I've played both WE and PFtT myself, I'm here to defend what I see (as in me personally, my opinion) as an integral part of the game that is threatened by simply smashing up the damage done by weapons.

    And hey if we've gone full circle it's because we're "working through the issues at hand" sometimes that happens, but it doesn't mean we're not making meaningful progress in terms of discussion.
  12. Proxystar #Perception

    Ok so that's a potentially viable other idea.

    A white hand mod, you can't expect a PFtT player to take a 2% damage deduction to take Empowered Channeling right, so sure possibly a white hand mod could work.

    Actually that's probably better than an artifact because, the artifacts can be used in PVP and might cause a problem there, whereas white mods are not.

    or perhaps we make them sacrifice their chest mod for "immunity to combat mechanics". The reality as I see it though is if you want to exempt yourself from something like combat mechanics then there has to be a price that's paid, if that price is an acceptable one then you don't even need to buff weapons because you can complete your melee combo

    or if you can't compete then, numbers all over could be looked at.
    • Like x 1
  13. Proxystar #Perception

    Video's are always going to be helpful, but if you were going to do so we'd need to decide what sort of instance we were going to run.

    The difficulty too is raids have so many variables.
    • Like x 1
  14. Proxystar #Perception

    So you want the game to become lantern grenade clip spam universe online again? Just trying to clarify exactly how far you're going with your clipping desire... Because there were still complaints back then about things.
  15. Ringz Dedicated Player


    Those complaints were of people that wanted to be top damage chase but couldn't because there were a skill ceiling to it. Which is what this thread is about. People should be rewarded for their skill ceiling. Also even without the extreme clipping, people were able to complete content just fine, so those complaints were indeed people complaining.
    • Like x 2
  16. Proxystar #Perception

    Not everyone liked the ridiculous clipping to the point where the animations barely played out or were even visible. I'm sorry but that's entirely subjective.

    And I'm sorry but are people struggling to complete content right now? The guy that posted he wanted a return to clipping was also complaining content was being beaten day 1... rather ironic.

    perhaps he's just complaining for the sake of complaining?
    • Like x 1
  17. Ringz Dedicated Player



    (We'll just ignore that you referenced only 1 power that was capable of that vs others) You're right. Not everyone liked the clipping, but I do not see how that counter argues that there were people that did. But we can leave it as subjective.

    Well if we're gonna compare content to then vs now :rolleyes:... Idk who this guy is or his thread is about so unless im caught up, that part is irrelevant to me.

    Ahh, but now we dig in to rather the complaints are valid or not.

    If we're gonna use your example, people complained about them not liking the clipping they had to do because they wanted to be top dps too. Again... People complained about the skill ceiling or others who skill ceiling was better than theirs. Clipping is an optional play style, it only starts to become recommend once you start wanting to compete but that style also had repercussions to it. You consumed ALOT of power. Past also proves, that just because you're consuming alot of power does not gurantee you were to be top dps or even beneficial, those are what we call bad dpses. So you have a play style with a skill ceiling with repercussions to it that rewarded players for doing it correctly, but people complained about that. Is that a valid complaint?

    I will also like to put out that other powers were capable of being top dps without heavy clipping or even clipping at all.

    Now we have someone complaining about their play style not being rewarded as much as the others. We just came from an AM era of 1234s being the dominated play style for years. We just discussed reasons on why hybrid should be performing better than PftT.

    Complaining, Whining, and nagging all fits into the category of "Voice of Concern", but its up to the jurisdiction to see which is valid or not. We're also talking about the same jurisdiction who buff'ed/nerf powers just because people complained they were losing without giving out any sort of information. We been giving out information on our behalf of this argument since they gave the 10% might buff to PffT and even predicted how things would turn out. And as far as Im aware, someone here who has a streak of predicting things turns out to be right yet again. Idk what more information or "proof" yall would need. Asking us for proof or vids again, is about as annoying and disrespectful as going to the pvp forums right now asking those people "what is wrong with pvp?" when you been knowned they been making threads on why pvp is busted.

    You been arguing in favor for PftT here, so you must enjoy how things are now. But no matter how you try to turn it, lets face it. Hybrid deserves more potential output than what PftT is doing now. No ifs, ands, or buts.
    • Like x 2
  18. Proxystar #Perception

    I'm not arguing in favor of PFtT at all, I'm arguing against buffing weapons to the point where combat mechanics are irrelevant, my conversations in relation to PFtT come about because people choose to grossly exaggerate the reality.

    There is a distinct difference, this discussion isn't even about PFtT other than the fact people choose to sit here and portray it as something that it isn't because they believe if they do it'll somehow validate the argument that they should get what they want... which is the combat system removed.

    There's one thing you people are refusing to acknowledge as well the moment you make WE or Hybrid "more OP" than PFtT the masses will flock there because it's cheap easy damage, especially if you're just buffing weapons to the point where combat mechanics are redundant.

    Most of the people in this thread know that full well and then we'll end up with "Why is PFtT so weak threads"... but that's ok right as long as it fits within your paradigm of what you find acceptable.

    This isn't about balance at all to a great number of you, it's about making "your prefered play style the most powerful" what's sad is none seem prepared to want to admit that.
    • Like x 1
  19. Fatal Star 10000 Post Club

    Or you just can't admit that it won't make as big a difference as you're making it out to be. This entire thread has really just been people making mountains out of molehills to try to prove a point- from both sides.

    In the end it won't be that big of a deal and like Ringz said it all depends who made the loudest noise and how the people behind the programming systems feel about.
    • Like x 3
  20. Ringz Dedicated Player


    I don't think noone here asked for weapons to buff as those are making it out to be. We want our style to be rewarded as stated many times here.

    Lol, im pretty sure the masses will stick to PFtT no matter what. Cheap easy spammable safe damage huh :D. If the devs have stated that people can't even figure out how to do AMs then im sure they will have a even tougher time handling hybrid or even WE, though I think WE is the same difficulty just as PFtT.

    Those threads will be unrealistic as fatal have already mention the ingame mechanics that hybrid, melee wep users will have to deal with. On top of that we gave sound and logical reasons to why hybrid should have more potential damage output than tray spamming. Also powers like Hardlight, Celest, Atomic, Earth would still be killing it in PfTt style as some powers are favored to be played just by tray since they still have their 10% might buff and power regen. We're not even arguing to take that away from tray users.

    Well we been told many times that theres no such thing as "balance" in mmos, but at least the most reasonable imbalances should be put in place. Hybrid doing more damage than tray is about as logical as it gets. What is not to understand here?