Why VS win all alerts ?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Eroulca, Sep 7, 2019.

  1. pnkdth


    In light of your previous reply it is not worth the effort, especially since you haven't put forth anything of a similar nature yourself. I may not have anything specific to PS2 but I've played enough MMO based in PvP to know the impact of "the collective wisdom of the community" has. From everything to which class is best, what to choose, class composition, strategies and tactics, meta game, to perception of which guilds are the best, where to go (server for example), who to talk to, etc etc. So to borrow your logic and reasoning in other threads, I do not need specifics on PS2 to know this, I have experience from other games such as EQ1 (team based PvP with four teams), Rift, DAoC (three different realms), even WoW had a limited version of this during the classic era. Much of this translates into PS2 since we have extremely similar discussions on factions, i.e. who are zerging, what faction is easy and hard mode, emotional arguments and faction bias, outfits who are cheesing it up, which server which is best, and on and on.

    In short, if you put a bunch of players in a sandbox you're effectively using an MMOFPS as a social experiment. What happens within will be determined by a hell of a lot more than simply by who has the best/worst or right/wrong gear. Just look at how each server has different results in alert, have different rules on what is acceptable, and which servers/outfits beats who in competitive events.

    That's as deep as I'll go. Take it or leave it, as it were.
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  2. pnkdth


    I was pointing to each factions behaviours being shaped around two unique units. In VS' case, the pull rate is similar but the top gunner ratio is not and the habit has been learned because that's how you'd get the most of it, whereas the NC MAX causing NC players to pull it in the different manner than TR/VS (or opt for slugs). It is entirely possible the top guns are better on the Magrider but it is also possible (due to it being more likely to be 2/2 versus more 1/2 NC/TR MBTs) the Maggie crews will be able to net themselves easier kills due to 2 versus 1 player since we also know there a lot more of those roaming Auraxis than there are Maggies.
  3. Campagne

    Not worth the effort to provide support or evidence for any of your claims? Surely you must know it's bullsh!t then. :rolleyes:

    I've put forth more effort, more evidence, more reasoning, more reasons, more counter arguments, and much more logic. You've ignored more arguments and picked more cherries. As above, the only real thing stopping from from giving an exact percent chance of the VS just magically getting all/most of the team-oriented players for any reason aside from "physical" balance is the fact that it's pretty much an impossible value to accurately determine. It's damn near microscopic and that's all we can say for sure,

    I'll just save us all some time and just [Citation needed]. Otherwise, do each of those games have distinct preset teams with identical, similar, or completely different weapons and equipment? Don't compare apples to oranges and think that makes a lime the same thing as a lemon.

    A social experiment? Maybe, if only to see what happens without making an effort to learn anything from player behaviour. If this were to be attempted to be passed of as actual research you'd get laughed out of every major academic journal from here to the moon. Except maybe some of the feminist-motivated ones, they tend to like emotional-based arguments.

    I leave you with the usual ultimatum: Either support your claims with reasoning and/or evidence or concede the point. I will accept silence as the latter. :p
  4. Demigan

    what we need to be certain is the amount of time actually spend in the turret, perhaps combined with shots fired (to gauge actual in-combat use) and compare this to the primary gun so we get a primary gun usage versus gunner usage ratio. Because currently it might just as well be possible that the driver of the Magrider is much more likely to switch to his own gunseat than the Vanguard/Prowler meaning that the number of "gunners" for the Magrider is inflated. Also since there are more gunners than Magriders something makes the gunner leave the Magrider for someone else to take that seat. We need to know that something.
  5. pnkdth


    I like to think I do that too. Odd how we seem to think our own positions are compelling...

    [Citation needed], hm, you can look up these titles yourself since you seem to think I'm making this up. Shouldn't be too hard to find info on DAoC, for instance, since it is pretty much a PvP MMO classic (and is getting a sequel soon... hopefully).

    If you wish to get anything more from me you first have to 1) tell me exactly, to the letter, what evidence you are looking for 2) show me evidence for your position which matches the level you expect from me, e.g. if you expect a study based on PS2 you better have one at the ready yourself (which shouldn't be a problem since all this talk about evidence and science must mean you sit on a wealth of hard evidence, right?).
  6. pnkdth


    Though with all these variables they also need to be taken into account on other factions and there aren't really any statistical anomalies to suggest this would be a unique habit for VS. Last time I checked the difference between top gun performance was also marginal in VS' favour.

    When looking at the ratio of gunners we must also look at different weapons such as Saron/Halberd and AI/AA. The latter two brings down the AV/AV pri/top ratio down to 0.9. This means the same person pulling the Maggie is simply equipped a different top gun. So just looking at the numbers as is there aren't more top gunners than there are people pulling Magriders. Player behaviour might alter this but I'm just taking the numbers at face value.

    So this means VS are very top gun happy + all factions performs similarly with the halberd + NC/TR pulling upwards of 5000+ more MBTs which having lower pri/top ratio. I think it is fair to say that a faction pulling more 2/2 (or if not being 2/2 immediately will crew their top gun the most) facing off against a large number of 1/2 tanks then the VS MBT will have an easier time finding easier targets. This could inflate the performance of the Maggie even if there are also plenty of 2/2 Vanguards rolling around.
  7. Demigan

    During the whole Magrider thread we found that the VS Halberd had a significant performance over the other two, but not on the Harasser.

    The numbers for topgun usage was by Campagne, and as far as I recall he did them for all AV topguns to get to the ratio's.

    The numbers would mean the Magrider would have to pick its target out between the crowd. Since the Magrider is chronically outnumbered it would most likely face a 2/2 Prowler/Vanguard supported by either a Lightning or a 1/2 Vanguard/Prowler. Its not very easy to simply pick out the 1/2 tank and kill it without your target getting supported or having the luxury to find cover and repair under the greedy eye of a 2/2 tank that really wants to kill a damaged Magrider (damaged because the 1/2 would have retaliated). And still it manages to not just break even but also outperform?
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  8. Valklyn

  9. StormyFacade

    It's because all their weapons either do better damage, have better handling, or just seem generally broken compared to what other factions have use for.

    Look at the Main Battle Tank. It can strife for crying out loud, no other faction has that. Are those tanks weaker? Sure, but not by enough that it matters.

    If you aren't in a Bio Dome, fighting VS usually means also fighting a column of hover tanks sitting on mountain overlooks, spamming their shots down at the base. That isn't fun, it's seriously annoying, and it's why TR and NC mostly only fight eachother, or they gang up on VS sometimes.

    Because TR and NC have mostly the same stuff, with different themes, and some parts of the factions are better than the other. Most Vanu stuff is just better, and it ain't just placebo either. I mained TR and played over 300 hours. If those kinds of stats were available, you'd see that atleast 75% of my kills are NC players, 2% are fellow TR (because people like to teamkill me, a Medic with (at the time) an almost maxed out achievement profile, and a maxed out loadout, so I teamkill them back, because it's what teamkillers deserve if it's not an accident), 1% would be me because I did so for laughs with friends, or I hated the current battle and wanted to go elsewhere, which often happened near the end of my playthrough and the remaining 22% are VS players.

    Not that I didn't like fighting them, probably over 60% of my deaths are from VS players, but I kill them so rarely that if I played it now, I'd purposely avoid all battles with VS players.
  10. ZDarkShadowsZ

  11. Campagne

    Strangely, almost all of those things are objective! So there's no way for us both to be right about our interactions. :p

    Hmm, no. [IMG]

    Your claims, your responsibility to prove them. If you will not or cannot prove your own claims they cannot be asserted.

    1)
    • Demonstrate the difference in alert victories is not due to empire-specific equipment differences.
    • Demonstrate each faction's respective playerbase is notably different from each other and behave in notably different ways.
    • Demonstrate any group of players' ability to cooperate will have positive results faction-wide.
    Should any one of the above fail to be demonstrated, the claim of the VS' ability to work as a team being the sole or primary cause for their victory count advantage will be refuted.

    2) As I've said above the literal exact probability of the event occurring is pretty much unobtainable and is certainly so to me. Regardless, we can still work with what we do have.

    According to Dasanfall, (if we just assume each character is one person for simplicity) there is a total of 414,167 players overall with faction totals of 151,812 NC, 146,160 TR, and 116,195 VS. This gives population percentages of 36.65% NC, 35.29% TR, and 28.05% VS, where we would expect to see a 33% split. Already this lowers the probability of any type of player randomly joining the VS.

    Next let us consider the probability of any given individual from the general game-consuming population possessing notably above average teamwork and communication skills and aptitudes. Because of the size of the video game customer base, we can very safely assume this to be normally distributed. In a normally distributed population 68.2% of individuals will be within one standard deviation. This leaves us with only 15.9% of the general video game connoisseur population having above average qualifications for working in and with a team. (How this would be measured accurately is a different story altogether.)

    Next, let us consider the probability of any given individual from the general game-consuming population deciding to install and play PlanetSide 2. About 414,167 people of millions of players choose to play PS2. Steam alone has over 90 million monthly players. This leaves us with a 0.4601% chance than any given individual on Steam plays PS2.

    Now let's add things up! There is a 0.07317% chance that a player on Steam randomly installs and plays PS2 and possesses above average qualifications for working in and with a team. Finally, let's see how this relates to the probability of choosing any given faction. There is a 0.0205% chance that a single player possessing above average capabilities for teamwork will pick up and play PS2 as the Vanu Scum.

    And now for the grand finale: The probability of only 30% of all VS players (34,859 players) possessing this aptitude and capability for teamwork is 5.8877x10^-7%. This is a statistical impossibility and does not even consider the probability of a majority of VS players, only less than a third of them.

    This is about as accurate as I can estimate without spending months or years and thousands upon thousands of dollars to collect an accurate and comprehensive data set. Hard (as close to realistically possible) objective evidence set in the mathematical science of probability, baby!

    TAGLINE, *******.
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  12. Exileant

    o_O Even cut in half, Kane's Special is still a monster, and still can be used against any target to great effect. It more than likely must be maxed out now, however once this is done, you have an Anti-Material stand-alone weapon that spreads instant fear upon use. :eek: It will still shred an aircraft just fine. :D It is all I use when I want to multi-task on the filthy side. I do not detect the difference in what the Airhammer used to be. It still knocks chunks off of whatever I aim it at. The one that needs an upgrade is? :( You guessed it, Vanu's P.P.C. Or Pathetic, Piece'A, Crap. (;) Poo, Poo, Cannon, is also acceptable.) Splash damage against infantry is literally this weapons only saving grace. :( It should be wider, and it should affect vehicles since it not only paints a target on your back during use, but also requires a massive amount of precision prediction to hit faster ground targets. :confused: I do not see the P.P.C. being better at damaging vehicles because of this fact.
  13. Exileant

    :D All of that to basically say I was right about V.S. being smaller and overall more skilled because of the necessity of teamwork and worse for wear weapon systems....... :p I guess you finally found those numbers on size that I was talking about. o_O Or perhaps you know it all along and just pretend not to. ;) Hahaha!
  14. Campagne

    I have no recollection of this conversation you are alluding to. Did you even read the thing you just look at the pretty numbers?

    Regardless, no. The NS and common pool weapons and equipment performance stats show very similar and uniform performance across all three factions, showing all players are of a similar skill level overall.

    And of course as per usual if the VS had any inferior weapons or equipment you would be able to provide irrefutable examples.
  15. adamts01

    When is the last time you've flown? The Banshee is no "monster" against anything but infantry. It's quite literally half the gun it was after CAI, and 1/4 if the gun it was before CAI. And no, your PPA assessment is WAY off. If you can land hits with it, it deals better burst damage and MUCH better sustained dps than the Banshee against everything. Look up the numbers for yourself. It sounds like you're living in the past.
  16. Exileant

    ;) As you just said in your previous reply, the P.P.C. is hard to hit an E.S.F. with, that means it is not going to be able to deliver better sustained damage than ANY other nose cannon. o_O If it could everyone would use it. Bullets are almost hit point and click. Banshee's weaponry are a slave only to the skill of the user. The gun shreds in the hands of a good Pilot. :eek: To make a P.P.C. work you have to be on a whole other tier of talented to bring down even a decent pilot in a head to head fight. Also because of those slow rounds leading wrong will cause you to expose your weak spot constantly to the enemy, leading PERIOD forces you to expose a flat side to your attacker. :confused: There is NO advantage to using it on an air target. Unlike the other Faction weapons in it;s class.
  17. Exileant

    :D The lower wins and lower populations are the irrefutable evidence. People play on the other two factions more because they WIN more and have better weapons.:p I told ya. Hahahahaha!
  18. Campagne

    Uhm, I think you might want to run the numbers again there friend. :p

    Also examples to support your argument plz.
  19. Lee Weldon

    One thing that I see in these games time and time again and is no different in this game is that there is a definite snowballing effect from winning the rewards. While I recognise owning things in this game doesn't instantly grant you victory it is sure nice to have completed loadouts and winning that 200 cert reward certainly helps kit out new players with all the weapon attachments, maxed out abilities and everything else, I don't think the default guns are as good as people give them credit because they lack propper attachment options, but as is the nature with sandbox games. When I started as NC on my server we like never won an alert and that made my account very resource starved early on though we win more now.
  20. ManiaMika

    You philosophize about the game as if it were real life. It is a game that has been programmed. In my opinion wrongly programmed. Because it is clear that the faction NC is simply weaker in many ways, like weapons and equipment. That is the most necessary or not? I think that the people in charge want it that way and that they just want to program the NC faction worse. I accuse that of Daybreak and something should happen slowly. Because such a shi... should be boycotted!

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