[Suggestion] Vanguard revamp ideas

This isn't really true. Prowler is the best tank. Personally I see ~20% higher SPM and KPH with ~60% higher K/D.

Oracle of Death records stats for all players and shows a similar (but somewhat smaller) advantage.

Since direct oracle links sometimes don't work:

1. Click weapon stat tracker
2. Select Vehicle KPH
3. Select all three AP weapons for the next three pulldowns.
4. Submit
5. Observe Prowler's continued dominance for all of recent history.

That's a major factor here, high durability doesn't matter much when you have infinite tanks.

One thing i've learned driving Vanguards is that over extending yourself in a big slow tank is often a death sentence. There is no escape in a Vanguard, almost every engagement is 100% commitment, so you have to choose your engagements with impeccable discernment. Could this affect the stats too? Do NC tankers play it safer because they have to?

The C4 resistance also doesn't matter against C4, since you'll still die to two bricks just like anyone else. So the only difference is if someone only uses one brick, you spend maybe half a second less repairing. Yay?

6: The Saron can put out nearly as much DPS as an AP Prowler (not quite equal, but very close).

Also, running away is actually surprisingly important in tank combat due to the ability to repair. The Magrider is able to play more aggressively overall than the Vanguard because it is better at escaping. The Vanguard can only play aggressively against lone targets, and only if the shield will last long enough to finish the target off. If anything is still alive when the shield goes down, the Vanguard is boned because there's no way it'll be able to reverse out of there. The Magrider can play aggressively against groups, diving in to do damage/get kills and then magburning away to repair.

It's pretty clear from the player statistics the Vanguard is underperforming compared to the other MBTs. Established. So let shift the discussion away from how the Vanguard is underperforming, and towards balanced solutions to make it perform as a MBT should while keeping as much NC flavor as possible.

Can you link me to where you can find statistics for each MBT, not just their weapons? I looked on Dasanfall and can only find individual weapons.

This game is a shooter and MBTs are a fighting unit, so performance is primarily measured by the weapon systems. What else are you looking for road kills? The Vanguard would rate high on sexiness I suppose.

Or are you meaning you want to see death stats like how the Vanguard is killed the most by C4?

C4 is the leading cause of death for all MBTs. It only preforms the worst because it doesn't farm infantry. Still waiting on a mag buff.

That doesn't make sense. The Vanguard should at least have higher vehicle kills according to you. I see the frustrating repeating of information that people are not absorbing here... as Alarox and Klypto mentioned, I dont know why i bother with these forums...

There are some dumb myths people keep repeating like a mantra. Please see the link below
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/top-5-vanguard-myths-with-numbers.183022/

This thread is for discussing the rebalancing of the Vanguard. It is for "solution think" not "problem think". If you don't believe the Vanguard is underperforming go discuss it on the other thread. This thread is focusing on solutions to what has already been established.

1,16 vehicle kills less doesn't seem much? How about we put it in perspective? the next best tank has 5,5 vehicle kills per Unique (the next worst 1,48 and can be neglected for now). that's an increase of 21%. So the Prowler and Magrider both have more than 21% effectiveness against vehicles on the field.
That's pretty significant. Just because it looks like a small one doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

Yes it does! Now look at how "effective" such a small window is in the game called Planetside 2. It doesn't help the Vanguard as the oppertunity for "a small window to utilize their DPS for quick ambushes". Mainly because of things like speed and the way force buildup works in the game. So Vanguard stats show that this tactic occurs so little that it doesn't help the Vanguard get even (not better than) with other two tanks.

Running away means you can survive longer... hey that's what our shield is for too! But now that you mention it, the Afterburner isn't used in a ton of battles while our shield is used in every battle. Still the Vanguards stats are significantly lower than those of the Prowler and Magrider. So despite our ability that can be used in more situations we are much worse off? That indicates that we are being outperformed.

I know you aren't dumb. What I don't understand is where you don't seem to understand my other points. I think you are often not responding directly to my arguments or ignoring certain pretty significant statistics. How does that happen? Why? I want to improve my arguments if need be to make them easier to reply to or something but without knowing where to start I'm in the dark.

Yes, but mobility seems to be much more effective than a shield. The Magrider has lower DPS but still outperforms the Vanguard with more kills and vehicle kills. The Prowler simply has more DPS spread out more continuously even after damage reduction, enabling it to better deal with infantry threats and having a lower penalty for missing.

I'm looking at Colonels stats and think he might have slanted the stats a bit... in the Vanguards favor (so increasing it's effectiveness).
Colonel, I'll see if I can duplicate your stats. We might come to an improved interpretation of the data.

The devs have said that the Vanguards does survive a bit longer (which isn't surprising), but that is to no great effect if they survive longer whilst losing the battle/war.

No, just the total kills and usage in hours for each MBT.

So, 1.16 less kills per hour? If that's true, then Vanguard is less effective but not that much... I mean. that's 100 xp less (if your talking about infantry) and around 400 if your talking about vehicles.

2. Well, vehicles do dodge between cover and poke out of it a lot...

3. See 1st paragraph

5. See 1st paragraph

That's essentially Kills Per Hour. The data collects that as an amount for each weapon, but you can easily add up all those values to arrive at a composite for each MBT. I've already done so here.

Or you could just multiply Kills Per User by the total number of users to find the total kills for each weapon. Then add up each weapon to figure out the total number of kills for each MBT.

Hours of usage are given as stats (usually in days) that you can simply add up.

But of course AKPH and AVKPH are pretty much metrics that have done all the hard work for you.

One note of course is that the Magrider should be performing significantly better than the Prowler and Vanguard at AI work, because there are statistical problems with the Marauder and Canister (their AKPHs are inflated above what they should be due to few users).

The same problem exists for the Prowler's Vulcan in terms of AVKPH. It is suffering from a statistical anomaly simply by not being very popular unlike the VS and NC equivalents.

All I see is that HE for Vanguard needs a buff and AP needs like 0.1 faster reload speed. 1 less KPH adds up to a lot, but its not making much of a difference battle to battle.

Changes I would make specifically:

AI Work:
Prowler HE cannons need a nerf and Vanguard HE cannons need a buff so they're both the same as the Magrider HE cannon.
Prowler HEAT cannons need a nerf and Vanguard HEAT cannon needs a buff so they're both the same as the Magrider HEAT cannon.
Prowler AP cannons need a nerf to bring them in line with Vanguard and Magrider AP cannons.
Insufficient data to make conclusions about ESAI and ESAV weapons.
Magrider Halberds need a nerf and Prowler Halberds need a buff to bring them in line with Vanguard Halberds.

AV Work:
All HE cannons balanced.
All HEAT cannons roughly balanced, slight buffs to Magrider and Vanguard HEAT possible.
Prowler AP cannons need a nerf and Vanguard AP cannons need a slight buff to bring them in line with Magrider AP cannons.
Insufficient data to make conclusions about ESAI and ESAV weapons.
Magrider Halberds need a nerf and Prowler Halberds need a buff to bring them in line with Vanguard Halberds.

And while these are lifetime statistics, one good thing about make slight tinkerings to a large body of data is that your tinkering is going to be slow (to wait and see how the trends change for the entire body of data which requires more momentum). A little damage here, a little less reloading there.

Seems pretty reasonable. no nerfs to mag yay!

Except: All Halberds have the same statistics. SOE just wants more money. They could've at least done different names and models, but that's not really relevant. http://imgur.com/Aupsl9i

The problem is that the same weapon on a different vehicle can drastically affect the usefulness of that weapon.

Take the Vulcan for example. It's fairly useless on a Prowler. But take that same weapon and mount it on a Harasser and you have a very potent chaingun.

It's also why MBT, Harasser, and Sunderer versions of the same weapon have slightly different stats.

In the same way a Halberd on a Magrider will perform differently than a Halberd on a Prowler or Vanguard. It makes sense to make MBT-specific Halberd variants to make up for this.

Then, what makes Halberd better on Maggy? Halberd is essentially a low damage secondary AI/AV cannon, which services all 3 factions well. Vanguard stats could be tipped by Enforcer.

Maybe VS Tank buster has more kills per hour than TR and NC. Does the mindset of a person and their faction affect the stats? What about the fact that different faction libs have different esfs to cover them and therefore different gameplay?
Your concerns are reasonable but there really isn’t any way to balance them expect for buffing/nerfing them all equally.

My first guess is that it benefits from the Magrider's innate stability, which allows it to avoid the bumpiness that can throw off shots on the Prowler or Vanguard.

My second guess would be that the Halberd benefits from the Magrider's ability to peek in and out of cover. The Halberd is a high-alpha damage weapon, meaning that it delivers its damage and then reloads.