[Suggestion] Vanguard revamp ideas

The Vanguard is statistically the worst performing tank and has been since the beginning of PS2. And yet, Vanguard “IWIN shield” threads are created almost weekly.

The Shield:
I understand peoples frustration with the shield, it is a reactive save your butt button. It makes for the best strategy to often disengage the Vanguard and wait out the shield if you don’t have superior firepower.

The idea behind the shield along with the vanguards slightly higher armor, is to make the Vanguard the durable tank of the faction MBT, as opposed to the Prowlers 2 cannon higher DPS or the Magriders hover/strafing mobility. What if we changed the strategy of how you deal with the Vanguard from engaging and then disengaging to waste their shield, to engaging and staying on it to “crack the egg” so to speak?

Here is a suggestion:
-You make the shield something that is passive and always there, recharging when not taking damage like the infantry shield. This makes the Vanguard the durable tank, if you let up on it or give it too much breathing room it will outlast you, if you keep pushing it you can beat it. It is no longer a reactive button, it is now inherent to the tank, just as the Prowlers dual cannon or the Magriders mobility.
-The strength of the shield would have to be reduced, it would no longer be a burst damage mitigation but a long lasting durability enhancement if used correctly by the driver.
-This adds more skill use to the shield because although it is now passive, the tanker needs to utilize cover to get optimal recharge to the shield, the recharge synergizes with the Vanguards slow firing weapon.
-The Vanguard would then have a free utility slot, or perhaps a new ability could be added that makes the Vanguard more fun to use, like a powershot that strengthens the power of the next shot the Vanguard makes. This could be limited by a cooldown and/or possibly make the Vanguard have to remain still when firing the powershot. Or maybe the powershot drops the shield, causing it to have to recharge again.

Thoughts? Additions? Restrictions?

By such a small margin it isn't really worth trying to throw that out there. The vanguard well not being as good as the other tanks at all around usefulness is the most effective ground vehicle in the game when dealing with enemy armor. For this very reason...all of your effective changes would only serve to make it near invincible to enemy tanks.

Passive shield means it starts every fight with extra HP that heals itself when not being hit? The tank already has super high round Velocity which makes it the king of long range encounters. So the idea of having to continue to push an attack on them when they already have more armor AND HP and now a shield that heals itself automaticly and opens up another slot for useable abilities? Sounds way to powerful.

The only thing the Vanguard needs is a viable Anti Infantry weapon to bring it in line with other tanks. If that means giving it's HE cannon a much larger explosion radius then the other empires...I'm happy with it. If it means making the secondary gunner position better at anti infantry...so be it. (Honestly I can't remember the last time I saw a vanguard run a Kobalt...trust me.....you would be more effective then you think. ) I just think with the slow reload on the main cannon....it should be more dangerous to infantry.

Well the "IWIN shield" complaints keep rolling in. The Vanguard has to have its durability advantage or it's a broken concept. I don't think you should just write this off without thinking of factors that can balance this idea if you think it is so OP. How long after taking damage that the shield starts recharging and the total damage absorbed can completely change this ability on a spectrum from UP to OP, so it would just be finding the right values to balance it in the game. When facing the Vanguard, you would know what you are going in against and don't have to predict when they pop the shield.

I'm tired of the "IWIN shield" "IWIN button" threads, the only suggestions we get are further nerfing the shield, so I am trying to build a constructive thread where we can make the Vanguard balanced, fair and fun to use.

I like the idea of this shield, and a powershot ability which draws on the shields energy system to increase damage on the next shot. How cool would that be? You sacrifice your defense for a chance at higher damage.

I think that statistically the Vanguard only appears as the worst out of the 3 because you can't farm infantry as well with it as with the other tanks (thankfully). And that is even more likely the case if those statistics you relate to involve the performance of secondary gunners. In vehicular combat the Vanguard seems perfectly fine. If you insist on buffing it only to bring it statistically up to par with the other MBTs I must say that I'd rather trade some of our AI capabilities to make that happen if that makes you feel better. And Imho if anything the overshield should be changed to a resist shield type of thing which still had to be manually activated. That's not to say that I'm against your idea with the Powershot. It sounds quite fitting for the Vanguard actually. But that's a thing for a universal MBT update in my opinion

If the Vanguard was the best AV MBT, you would expect it to be at the top for vehicle kills statistics, but no, it is last place for both vehicle and infantry kills last I heard. The Vanguard is also killed by C4 more than the other tanks even with it’s amazing “IWIN shield”.

The Vanguard shield was nerfed while the Vanguard was already statistically performing the worst. Nothing was done to address the Vanguards already existing issues, just a nerf to an already underperforming tank. The Vanguard shield ability was and is a bad idea, it is holding back the Vanguard from being properly balanced in the game. Can I do ok in the current Vanguard? Sure, but I am sick of the complaints on the forums from both sides, so let’s work at making the Vanguard something that is effective, balanced, and fun to use.

Don't get me wrong though, this is not a buff thread, this is a revamp thread. What can make it better for NC while keeping it balanced with the other factions.

I'm sorry Forumside annoys you...it annoys us all. I never made a "iwin shield" post.

But I don't offer any changes simply because...I don't think any of it is viable really. No point in trying to re-engineer something that likely isn't going to work.

I really don't mind the shield. It isn't so bad....

BUT if I was going to change it. I would see something like "Auraxium Rounds" When activated the next two rounds fired from the main gun have increased damage by 1.25% And add a larger splash damage radius to what ever round your cannon normally fires. However I would also suggest a slight reduction in round velocity. Would need a decent cooldown as well. BUT....it may end up being OP in large numbers. *shrugs* But then again tanks in large numbers already destroy things....so what ever.

It would effectively make the Vanguard a close range threat to infantry and vehicles. Infantry won't be so brave.

Curious to see what the number of kills are of Aircraft by MBT. I can promise you the Vanguard 'out preforms' the other two by more then twice

My point? Looking at only one catagory of it's fighting capability is worthless in the overall nature of the game. I honestly think it is a giant mistake trying to make all the tanks kill each other equally. To me it is a fools errand. It's much better to make each one king of something..... and just let the different empires adjust tactics.

NC Tanks attack you?...we need more aircraft!
TR tanks attack you?.... we need more tanks!
VS tanks attack you?...close the distance!

Just an example .....

This is the first suggestion on how to redo the shield/vanguard that could actually be balanced and fun for all people involved.

I especially like the secondary ability of sacrificing the shield for a powerful shot.


But alas, as per forumside tradition this only gets hate......

Well, OKAY...
But the Magrider's "strafe" sucks. What about it, man? What will MY tank get? If your willing to make the Magburner act like an actual turbo (That is, lasts for A GOOD SPAN of time) and is multi-directional, I'm all in for ideas

If someone has all the current numbers, I would really appreciate your post.

The thing about aircraft kills, although you can put it in the perks for the Vanguard pile, it is hardly effective AA. Even the best Vanguard AP sharp shooter isn't like a Skyguard which is what you pull for AA (or burster MAX). You pull MBTs to deal with enemy vehicles and to suppress enemy infantry. The Vanguard’s ability for AA is a factor that should be considered, sure… but I wouldn't give it much weight. I would sacrifice AA ability for the Vanguard to be meaningfully good at something MBTs are intended and effective at.

Shouldn't the Vanguard be the best at something statistically? Or at least be in the middle somewhere? How does that not appear something is wrong here?

Well I'm open to discussing that. It just has to be balanced with the performance statistics. But consider this, the Vanguard's poor statistical performance is one factor holding the Magrider back from becoming the sexy beast it could be as well. As long as the Vanguard's stats are in the dirt, the Magrider will never see the tweaks that might make it shine more too.

The Vanguards poor stats are in part because for AI work, the Lighting is simply superior and always will be. (faster, smaller frame so easier to dodge all the dumbfires. Faster refire rate, Titan's higher damage per hit in meaningless against OHK soft targets. Even with a strong AI secondary, 2 lightnings would still be better)

Tank v Tank the Vanguard is fine. I think with the heavy nerf to damage absorbtion and duration to the shield, the speed penalty could be reduced. This would make the shield a lil better at popping to save and reach cover, which would help more in large scale fights.

Canister needs an upgrade.... It's just a poor underperforming weapon (though better now than it was obviously).

I think transfering some of the direct damage to splash damage would go a fair ways since all damage moved to splash damage wouldn't suffer damage degradation over distance. Tightening the pellet spread would also make it more effective out to longer ranges. Finally it might still need a few more rounds per magazine.

The HA shield nerf is never happening, man

The prowler and vanguard can get more ES-specific thingies if the magrider would get something else than "WOO IM FLOATING" and "LOOK, I CAN STRAFE AS FAST AS A 21ST CENTURY BICYCLE". Sure, strafing is a god send at long range, but with the magrider you better avoid close and medium range at all cost or you're just going to get taken out if your skill and loadout is the same.

? Who said anything about HA shield nerf.

The Vanguard shield was nerfed... by 25% duration or 33% durability whichever happens first.

That's a HUGE nerf.

It could use a reduction to the speed penalty so that the vanguard can make it to cover in the shorter lifespan of the shield.

Well if they could get a functional version of ZOE (if that's possible to balance), it would be cool on the Mag for a strafing boost and close range damage. Maybe make the Magburn built-in for the Mag too.

If that's the case, let the debate begin!
Magrider and Vanguard brotherhood. Here's how it'll work: I make improvements to Vannie, and you make improvements to Maggie. Simply post 'em, and we'll choose the best ones
What do you say?

OH! You said "Heavy", so I thought you were talking about the HA
Otherwise, I say we make the Vanguard itself stronger, and instead of 25 and 33%, make the penalties 15 and 25% for each factor, respectively. Also, the shield slows the Vanguard down? Never knew that...

Well, think about it this way:
Buff the Vanguard, buff the Magrider!
I hope that they make the Magrider strafe much faster, and give it no drop and a better shape. Because as of now, it gets stuck WAY too often. For now, let's improve some things to make other things even better
P.S. Vanu brotherhood for life

I like the suggestion, but you're using two contradicting advantages there, close range damage + strafing speed. Up close, strafing doesn't matter against any enemy tanker that has something that even remotely resembles skill. That means that the extra damage you take is probably going to be worse than the extra damage you're dealing. I'm not sure how a ZOE-type utility would work on a tank. The problem is that you're a big thing that draws attention, and thus should be able to take quite a beating. Even if it gave increased mobility and damage you'd still be putting yourself at a severe risk as every enemy will focus fire on you. The same went for the old ZOE max of course, but he could have engineers backing him up, the TTK's in infantry combat are way lower and you're a far smaller target that is now also moving faster. If we're trying to give it a utility that boosts it's 1v1 tank ability (lockdown and vanguard shield both do this, however lockdown makes you a sitting duck, but a really god damn powerful sitting duck for that matter), I can't really think of anything right now that would do this and be "vanu" enough. ES specific stuff is cool and all, but a god damn beatch to balance.