Valid reasoning on why the NS-15M should have been changed during the LMG changes.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Scr1nRusher, Feb 11, 2016.

  1. SW0V

    You claim that I'm not listening yet you show very little capacity to listen yourself.

    I hear what you're saying. You're saying 0.75 ADS is OP on LMG's... all LMG's... doesn't matter what other stats exist in the game all you KNOW with conviction is that 0.75 ADS on LMG's is OP.

    I'm saying... no, it's not. What made 0.75 ADS on some (not all) LMG's OP was the combination of the modifier and the high damage output.

    The NS weapons have the lowest DPS of all weapons in the game, but they make up for it with accuracy and mobility. Therefore, they are balanced. They sacrifice DPS and balance that with lower incoming DPS through dodging which slows down 1v1 engagements.

    The VS LMG's had both, and were brokenly OP, which is why THEY got changed but the NS LMG's did not.

    But if you insist. I'll dissect your entire original post and point out to you all the instances where you are wrong.

    Here goes:


    The LMG changes were designed to do 2 things:

    1) Remove 0.75 ADS off all LMG's that have it. No they weren't. They specifically said removing from ES LMG's ONLY

    2) Tweak the Empires LMG arsenals. They accomplished this

    Keeping that in mind....... did they fully do what they were designed to do? Yes. Because they never intended to change the NS-15M

    The answer is "almost" when you consider the NS-15M:

    1) 0.75 ADS was removed off all ES LMG's, but not all LMG's. Because they never said they would

    The NS-15M is the only LMG that still has it. This is troubling due to how the weapon trait(0.75 ADS) was proven to be problematic We both agreed that it was a combination of stats and not the 0.75 ADS as a standalone stat enough on LMG's that it had to be removed & damaging enough that the weapons post 0.75 ADS removal had to be buffed. Yes, because weapons need to have andvantages and disadvantages. Without a buff to accuracy the VS would literally have flat out worse weapons than TR/NC just like removing 0.75 ADS from the Jaguar and not balancing with some buffs would make it a straight up downgrade to the Trac-5.

    If you are going to remove 0.75 ADS off a weapon type...... then ******* do it entirely. They never claimed they were going to remove 0.75 from ALL LMGs

    2) Some thing.....something is missing. A few IQ points

    The NS-15M is part of each empires LMG arsenal, which means it should have got changed aswell. Why? This literally makes no sense. The halberd is part of each empires arsenal, why was it not changed when the new ES secondary weapons for vehicles came out? Do you see how this makes no sense?


    To get the point across, answer these 3 questions: These three questions to 'get your point across' don't get anything across other than the NS-15M is an LMG available to all factions and has 0.75 ADS.... it does not show that this trait is OP in any way.

    1) Is the NS-15M a LMG? yes

    2) Is the NS-15M a 0.75 ADS LMG? yes

    3) Is the Ns-15M part of each empires(TR,VS,NC) LMG arsenals? yes

    So keeping those answers in mind, if you consider how the LMG changes were designed to adjust/tweak the LMG arsenals of all empires & take 0.75 ADS off LMG's........... Again, the change to ADS was one of MANY changes. Why are you so focussed on it. Why not focus on the buff to max damage range on some of the other weapons? Why not focus on the reduction in velocity to some of the other weapons? Why not focus on the hipfire accuracy changes, the moving ADS accuracy of some? Why not focus on ANY of these other aspects.... but 0.75 ADS?

    Do you understand why this is a WTF moment in game balancing? I really don't.

    If you are going to do a job, fully do it. They did. They never claimed to want to remove 0.75 ADS from ALL LMG's. Just all the VS ones.... which they did. They also adjusted the other LMG's in the game to be competitive for different roles.... they did that too.

    This is exactly like how Resist Shield during the HA shield changes got nerfed to take 1 less bullet, while the other HA shields got nerfed to take 2 less bullets. So, you're using this faulty argument and applying it to other game balance changes? Great! The reason that resist shield wasn't 'nerfed' as hard is because it needs to be used retroactively, whilst the other shield types do not. It also applies its movement debuff for 100% of the time you're taking damage if you activate it retroactively, whilst the other shields lose their movement debuff once you break them. The resist shield also doesn't stack with nanoweave armor, but the other two do. Maybe put 30s of thought into why something is changed differently before complaining.

    And I wouldn't call the HA shield changes nerfs anyway. I'd call them re-balances. They work differently now, not necessarily straight downgrades to how they used to play.

    All HA shields should have been nerfed to take 2 less bullets, no exceptions. Just like how The NS-15M should have got changed during the LMG changes & had 0.75 ADS removed. This makes no sense.... again. This argument is so stupid. Why didn't all LMG's get a 20m maximum damage range when the LMG changes went live? Why weren't all LMG bullet velocities nerfed? Why weren't all LMG's get moving CoF buffs? Because they wanted god damn variety in the weapons to fill different niches! Similarly, they changed the shields appropriately for how they were performing and not by just some flat number amount across all types because that makes NO SENSE!

    I was talking to BBurness about the LMG changes way back & when I brought up how the NS-15M should be included in them & changed he said something along the lines of "Since all empires have the NS-15M, its balanced".

    That logic is flawed when you consider that he as a dev identified that 0.75 ADS being on LMG's is problem that needed to get fixed. But apparently he thinks its fine as-long as EVERYONE HAS THE PROBLEM.So, BBurness made a poor argument about game balance.... that doesn't prove that the NS-15M class of LMG's aren't balanced.

    And the hilarious part is that they still added the Gallows, proving that the NS-15M is "protected" because it makes money. So its "fine" for the NS-15M to have 0.75 ADS & keep breaking the balancing that was done because people would flock to it post LMG changes. Show me the flocking to this clearly OP weapon. The VS still use the Betelgeuse SIGNIFICANTLY more, the TR use the MSW-R and Butcher at similar rates and the NC also use the Anchor and GODSAW at similar rates among BR100 players.

    The NS-15M is a cash cow, to such a point we have 7 variants at this point: This is a flawed argument as it is also the only line of LMG's that when purchased unlock on all factions.

    • NS-15M1
    • NS-15M2
    • NS-15MB
    • NS-15MG
    • NS-15MP
    • NS-15M AE
    • NS-15M Gallows
    Did you know that you almost had 8 variants? So? What does this have to do with its power on the battlefield? Did you know there are like >10 variants of the basilisk in the game? Is it also brokenly OP?

    Due to my & others efforts the NS-15M has became a meme...... to such a hilarious basically pointing out this **** level. So, your argument is that "I'm making fun of it because I, personally, think it's broken.... therefore, it's broken"? Great!

    For the 3rd Anniversary Bundle they were originally going to have NS-15M's colored ES style instead of the Commissioners.

    I honestly expect a Auraxium Plated NS-15M to eventually happen.

    All these factors prove that the NS-15M isn't being balanced for reasons outside of balance. All of these factors prove nothing except you are a victim of confirmation bias.
    • Up x 1
  2. Scr1nRusher

    You must have something to lose if you are this defensive of this weapon.
  3. SW0V

    I don't care whether it's changed or not. I've auraxed pretty much every TR infantry weapon in the game and I didn't intend to keep using the NS-15M once I have auraxed the last 2 AR's and SR's..... bloody TRAP-M1.

    I'm just allergic to stupidity. Show me ANY REAL evidence that the NS-15M is OP. Go. try to find it. I dare you.

    Edit: When I see a forum thread titled "Valid reasoning on why the NS-15M should have been changed during the LMG changes"

    It annoys me when I then spend 5min reading a wall of text only to find NO VALID REASONING.
  4. ObiVanuKenobi

    It was mostly about balancing LMGs across factions not balancing LMGs against other weapons. NS15 without 0.75 ads would be lacking because of low dps, 0.75 ads is one of the main things that make it viable right now.

    It had to be removed from VS because other factions had similar LMGs with 0.5 ADS speed which made the VS versions straight upgrades. NS15 is different because it has lower DPS and is available to all factions. You trade damage for accuracy and mobility.
    Serious? Vehicle weapons don't even have an ADS speed and all RLs have the same ADS speed, it's obvious i'm talking about "normal" infantry weapons.
  5. Scr1nRusher

    Its clearly still viable when ADAD isn't involved.
  6. SW0V

    Yep, he seriously is so focused on the tree that he can't see the forest.
  7. Blippy

    It's a leftover stigma from when rapidly strafing left and right threw you wildly out of sync and made you stupid hard to kill. 0.75 ADS speed made this easier. The bug doesn't exist anymore (or at least to the point where the effect is negligible) but people still act like it does, so whenever there's discussion on LMG balance, people use 0.75 ADS as a scapegoat for why some guns are over/underperforming.

    Kind of like how people say that VS can never have a nice thing anymore because ZoE existed, even though nowadays you're paying thousands of certs to effectively nerf yourself.
  8. Poppington

    You are correct that NS have better CoF overall, and sometimes recoil, but you're missing one stat: First shot multiplier. NS weapons by and large have terrible FSM, which is really important for good ranged take downs. So, if you sit on the trigger when killing something at range, you are more likely to kill with an NS gun. This problem is that holding down the trigger at range is a terrible idea. Due to the FSM, most ES ranged guns are FAR better at short bursts than NS ones, and are in practice easier to use. I didn't even discuss fall off, which is a whole other issue.

    But you missed my point, I was directly showing you that they perform WORSE at range than other weapons, even when their accuracy is better in a few aspects. This is because aside from the accuracy issue that you're so focused on (which again, isn't the only factor for effectiveness), NS weapons' traits are that they are versatile. Therefore, they have a few stats skewed to help with close range, such as the .75 ADS.

    Ultimately, even with (very marginally) superior accuracy if you hold down the trigger, the NS weapons are inferior at range than ES long-range focused guns.
  9. Wind_Walker

    I thought so. I barely recall the days when PS2 was super buggy.

    Personally, I like the idea of ZoE, which is like Most RPG's berzerker role: deal more damage, take more damage. Depending on your tactics, it could work in your favor. The specific details, i'm not familiar with tho.
  10. Shiaari

    Ok, you've said a lot of stuff there, and it seems that the contention between yourself and Scr1n is whether or not the weapon is balanced, and whether or not the devs intended to remove 0.75 ADS from all LMGs or just ES LMGs.

    It seems the argument as gone a little askance.

    Balancing an individual weapon is a very narrow scope. What is missing--I think what Scr1nRusher may be looking for--is the argument for class balance and the role class specific weapons play in that.

    The only class that can use the NS-15M is the Heavy Assault. Your argument is that the weapon's low DPS is made up for with increased mobility. I would argue that the weapon's low DPS is made up for the fact you can carry skill with this weapon to all factions. This goes back to the argument for "viable" NS weapons, an argument I didn't fully understand. The purpose of NS--read: common pool--weapons is not to be viable weapons in of themselves, but to give a player a way to be effective with a weapon across multiple factions while acquiring certs to use those factions' weapons.

    Why must the NS-15M be viable? A Heavy doesn't--and shouldn't--need to be very mobile at all. The class should be the least mobile non-MAX infantry class in the game. A player using the NS-15M should be using it to get into his new faction's weapons, not as a main weapon. So, the weapon shouldn't be balanced to viability, it should be a stop gap, a temporary crutch. A player relying on it should suffer a minor penalty in effectiveness.
    • Up x 1
  11. ridicOne

    As I dont disagree with what you have stated here, the problem lies within the cof rng which plays out way better on NS weapons over ES ones. (outside of the netcode) have you ever had your cosshair dead center on a guy but since the cof rng the shot goes slightly outside of the hitbox? This problem doesn't really exist with NS weapons they are usually dead straight always. So what I'm not saying is they are better but they are far to forgiving. I'd bump their damage up for less bull++++ point and click.

    The thing in the end the person that lands more shots the fastest is the winner. NS imo is the best at doing this the easiest.
  12. ObiVanuKenobi

    All NS weapons should be bad because they have the "advantage" of being usable on multiple characters?
    Switching to different faction weapons isn't hard at all, it's not really an advantage.
  13. Shiaari

    Whether or not they truly afford this advantage has no bearing on that being the precise justification for their presence.

    Basically, what you've done here is invalidate the existence of NS weapons as a whole. If they serve no purpose, then why have them?

    There is an answer to that question, of course: Money. It saves DBG a LOT of money to release terribly flawed weapons under the guise of: "Everybody gets them!" Just look at the Emissary on the PTS. That's a **** weapon right there, and will be **** because giving Stalker infiltrators what will effectively amount to an SMG must be rendered virtually useless to everyone else.

    It's crap. NS weapons are. If they serve no purpose then they shouldn't ever have been introduced in the first place.

    Meanwhile, all we're asking for is that a purposeless weapon be normalized with all of its purposeless cousins.
    • Up x 1
  14. SW0V

    Are you seriously asking this? Because if you are.... I just... can't even....
  15. Shiaari

    You can't even what? Justify the viability of weapon that was intended to be a transition to other weapons? Or, justify its existence altogether?

    What is it you cannot do? This is an important question to ask, because if you can't.........
  16. SW0V

    All weapons should be viable. That's what 'balance' is. You not understanding this incredibly basic principle is astounding to say the least and I feel that no logical argument is going to sway you or scrin back to sanity.
  17. Shiaari

    Whoa, balance in what sense? You're using a word without giving it context.

    A weapon must be balanced with the class that uses it--which as an aside is one of the reasons I don't think Heavies should be able to use SMGs, but that's a story for another time.

    You can't just balance the weapon, you have to balance it with the Heavy Assault class, what the class is intended for, what it is not intended for, and how effective it should be at those respective things.

    My argument is that the NS-15M is out of balance--not simply as a weapon--but as a weapon for the Heavy Assault class. It affords the class too much mobility for a light machine gun, and since Heavies can still use NS SMGs why even bother with 0.75 ADS LMG? Oh, right, because it has a substantially larger magazine. SMGs must be reloaded more often, and are less accurate.

    So, why cling to the ADS LMG unless it's a crutch for you?
    • Up x 1
  18. SW0V

    I gave you context.... right in the quote you have there. It has to be a 'viable' option. A viable option next to OTHER LMG's that are ALSO only available to the HA class.

    I give up.... you guys MUST be trolls. There's no way you guys are actually this deficient.
  19. SW0V

    Just one last thing I'll say before I leave you and scrin to continue this empty headed debate on a non-issue.

    I made my stats available for all to see in my signature.... maybe use that before you go off telling people how they play the game as if you know better than they do.

    Crutch? Please.

    I have 1162 kills with the NS-15M1 and 1160 kills with the NS-15MP.... yeah man... these guns were so OP I stopped using them as soon as I auraxed them. Cos.... you know... I didn't want to be 'that guy' that uses the OP weapons.

    But you guys..... Shiaari with a grand total of 0 NS-15M kills and Scrinrusher who ALSO stopped using the NS-15M1 as soon as he auraxed it. Yeah, you guys are experts in identifying OP weapons.

    Cos you know.... only 28 people across three factions have >10,000 kills with the NS-15M1 but 48 NC have >10,000 kills with the Gauss SAW. CLEARLY, the NS-15M1 is OP.... it's so OP that people stay away from it because they're afraid of how powerful it is.... kinda like how everyone stayed away from ZOE max pre-nerf or Gatekeeper.... you guys are a riot!

    This is my last post... so don't bother replying.
  20. Scr1nRusher

    I don't know how often you play on the other servers, but Briggs is in its own world from the rest.